GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
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Money won or lost by betting $100 on Lebron's teams in the preseason for 22 seasons
-625 loss
Money won or lost by betting $100 on MJ's teams in the preseason
+760 profit
Money won or lost by betting $100 on Curry's teams in the preseason
+2185
Duncan also shows a big profit, and Kobe might also show a profit, so only Lebron shows a big loss
It's based on the published Vegas preseason odds and Fidstar's calculation.
Specifically, Lebron's team had +280 odds in the 2016 preseason, so when they won the title, the bettor gets 280 on top of their initial $100 investment (+280 profit)... If the Cavs would've lost, the bettor would've been out his initial $100 investment (-100).. Accordingly, 18 seasons of not winning the title equals -1800, plus 1175 for the 4 times he won, which equals -625 overall for his career..
The reason that Lebron's profit is less than everyone's is because he lost a lot with preseason favorites (i.e. he lost when he had the best preseason odds in the league) and never won without the best odds/preseason favorites.. Meanwhile, many of his peers never lost with preseason favorites (like Lebron did many times), and they won without preseason favorites, (which Lebron couldn't do)..
It's intuitive that Lebron needs favored talent/preseason favorites to win, since his chemistry is worst-ever (turns everyone into spot-up shooter).. This is also why Lebron loses with favored talent/preseason favorites.
Statistically, Lebron's time of possession (hold-time) and assisted rate (proportion of FG's that are assisted by teammates) shows abnormal ball-dominance for his size/position, thus intensifying the "spot-up shooter" impact on teammates.. Not surprisingly, Lebron's abnormal hold-time and assisted rates are outside the thresholds of what has been done historically by the 1st options of dynasties or dominant title runs (the best basketball).. Infact, there's never been a primary ballhandler that was the 1st option for the best basketball (dynasty or dominant title run).
Kobe loses less than Lebron
It just adds to the existing evidence of Kobe's superiority
And just imagine if Pau was 3rd option like Bosh or Love were - Kobe would've won 8+ rings with Lebron's help..
Meanwhile, Lebron has no legitimate rings because he won via luck/teammate bailout or shortened seasons.. i.e everyone knows the Lakers pulled off the historic heist to get AD, and therefore were the only motivated team in the bubble.. Then he has the win over babies in the shortened season of 2012, and then 2 bailouts by teammates or the league in 13' and 16'.. Complete dogshit ring quality..
Lebron also never defeated max defensive attention by carrying the scoring load for the playoffs and Finals of a title run like Kobe did.. The issue is that excessive ball-dominance can't beat top teams, so Lebron can't carry the scoring load against top teams.. This matters because an inability to carry the "star" category of scoring requires more stars and prevents GM's from getting the right defenders/others, aka elite roster construction.. Lebron's prevention of elite roster construction prevents him from winning with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player (organically).. In addition to not carrying the scoring load, roster construction is further hampered by Lebron's skillset of turning everyone into spot-up shooter (basic ball-dominator, aka "downhill" skillset)
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Regular Season
Playoffs
09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY...... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER
Imagine if Mathurin dominated SGA in the Finals, or Pippen dominated Barkley - it's impossible to lose in these scenarios, and the 1st option wouldn't have to play that well to win.For example, the 1st option could average 24 and 6 TO's for the first 4 games to get a 1-3 deficit - that's what Lebron did... Meanwhile, MJ dominated to get a 3-0 lead.
^^^ what part of this is not based in fact
I suppose Siakam or Haliburton were the sidekick and not Mathurin, but the point remains that it's considered an "unlosable" situation when the sidekick dominates the opposing 1st option.. The only reason the Cavs struggled is because Lebron choked for 4 games to begin the series with 24.7 and 6 TO's per game.. It's impossible to win with the 1st option playing like that - what part of this is untrue???
Lebron was literally almost swept by playing like that and needed opponent injuries, league bailout, and teammate bailout to win - this is the historical record, aka there are times and dates associated with all this stuff.. Why are you pretending any of this is untrue?
Ultimately, the Cavs were a preseason favorite "big 3" against a 1-man team whose sidekick under-produced 09' Mo or Hornacek (above) - the Warriors were regarded as a trashy +2800 roster in the 15' preseason (worst odds to ever win).. They were a 1-man team just like the 09' Cavs or 07' Dirk, but Curry doesn't get this credit because the term "73-win team" implies "stacked" - this robs Curry of his carry-job and marginalizes his historic unanimous MVP.
Kobe loses less than LebronIt just adds to the existing evidence of Kobe's superiority And just imagine if Pau was 3rd option like Bosh or Love were - Kobe would've won 8+ rings with Lebron's help.. Meanwhile, Lebron has no legitimate rings because he won via luck/teammate bailout or shortened seasons.. i.e everyone knows the Lakers pulled off the historic heist to get AD,
i hope you believe pau is a franchise player too huh ?
The year before he joined the Lakers, Lamar Odom was the best player on a Miami Heat team that went 42-40
So Kobe had 2 franchise player teammates at that time.
And Andrew Bynum had the highest PER on the 11/12 Lakers, more Bryant or Gasol. For a period of time, Bynum would've definitely been a franchise player on many other teams.
Dwight Howard was a franchise player in his prime when he joined the Lakers. And Nash was still a franchise player when he joined Kobe's Lakers.
Even Ron Artest was a franchise player before he joined Kobe. And if LeBron is already credited with having the chance to play with Doncic, then Kobe had the chance to play with Magic Johnson. And Karl Malone. And Gary Payton. And Glen Rice. And Mitch Richmond. All of these guys were franchise players.
The Heat never built around Odom.. Otoh, they immediately started building around Wade, which involved getting rid of an underachiever like Odom.Similarly, no team ever built around Bynum or Artest, for obvious reasons.Generally, franchise players consist of the obvious budding superstars that are on a serious upward trajectory (i.e. young Wade, rookie Lebron) OR elite producer
LeBron hasn't played with prime Luka, and if he does, he'll be 41 when he does.
Other than Wade (who had Shaq the one year), the rest accomplished nothing as 'franchise' players.
Luka has already had a couple seasons where he dropped off, and now he's trying to get back to where he was.
So he's definitely in his prime.. Luka has been a top 3 player for a while now.
Other than Wade (who had Shaq the one year), the rest accomplished nothing as 'franchise' players.
Lebron accomplished nothing until he teamed up with other franchise players, since he was either historically locked up, lottery or 2nd Round loser from 04' to 10'... i.e. no one ever shot 35% with 6 TO's except Lebron in the 07' Finals.
The only exception to these failures was when he became one of the 5 biggest favorites to ever lose a playoff series in 09' (-700 favorite).. Btw, the 08' Playoffs saw Lebron shoot 35% with 5 TO's during a 7-game series, which equals choking.
So again, history shows that Lebron did nothing with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player and needed to team up with other franchise players via "decision".
Other than Wade (who had Shaq the one year), the rest accomplished nothing as 'franchise' players.
Franchise players don't have to accomplish anything, just like rookie and sophomore Lebron was still considered a franchise player despite missing the playoffs.
Generally, franchise players consist of 1) obvious budding superstars that are on a serious upward trajectory (i.e. rookie Lebron) or 2) elite producers that have their own team (teams are building around them).
Accordingly, prime versions of AD, Bosh, Love, Luka, Kyrie and Wade were obvious franchise players/elite producers that teams were building around.. Otoh, Pau was never an elite producer and clearly below Bosh or Love, and even Jamison at the time (08')..
2025 Luka was awful. Just a high turnover low percentage chucker that played no defense. LeBron has never played with any version of Luka worth mentioning. And even when he did he was 40.
2025 Luka was awful. Just a high turnover low percentage chucker that played no defense. LeBron has never played with any version of Luka worth mentioning. And even when he did he was 40.
Luka was 28/8/8 on 49% for the Lakers (59 TS) .. So you're whining about nothing - Lebron has always been a perennial loser with great help like this.
2025 Luka was awful. Just a high turnover low percentage chucker that played no defense. LeBron has never played with any version of Luka worth mentioning. And even when he did he was 40.
Luka was at 28/8/8 on 49%, but the team was hurt by the horrific fit with Lebron (bad off-ball player):
That's why they had upset loss in the 1st Round
Losing in the 1st Round with Luka or AD = you're bad at NBA basketball
And this next season, Lebron will be another huge negative (the only one) alongside Luka
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Franchise players that Lebron played with (elite producers that teams were building around):
1) Wade (statistical comparison is Kobe)
2) Luka (Magic)
3) AD (Duncan)
4) Bosh (Senguin)
5) Love (McHale)
6) Kyrie (Isiah)
^^^ 6 franchise players = the most help ever, yet only 1 sixty-win season in 15 years with these guys... Crapping the regular season is why Lebron's teams fell from preseason favorite to underdog or loser every year
It ruins your argument that you include Luka.
It's like saying Jordan played with George Gervin.
It ruins your argument that you include Luka.
It's like saying Jordan played with George Gervin.
Luka averaged 28/8/8 on 49% as a Laker, so the fact that you're complaining about it shows the level of Klutch hypnosis
And Gervin didn't play in the playoffs and was 16 ppg compared to Luka being a top 4 player in league
Luka averaged 28/8/8 on 49% as a Laker, so the fact that you're complaining about it shows the level of Klutch hypnosis
And Gervin didn't play in the playoffs and was 16 ppg compared to Luka being a top 4 player in league
Luka did not shoot 49% as a laker and was not a top 4 player on 2025. He was probably not even a top 40 player in the NBA in 2025. He might've been the 4th best Laker. 40 year old LeBron was better than him.
And I actually watched the games. He was pretty awful at the things that help a team win.
You can't complain about 28/8/8 on 44% and 59 TS
It's simply Klutch hypnosis to complain
Everyone had Luka as a top 5 player prior to the trade.
It was only after the trade underwhelmed and failed that Luka was considered a bum by Lebron fans.
Ever since Lebron gave up on chemistry development in 2010 and opted for a talent-based approach thereafter, all losses must be blamed on lack of talent (talent-based approach) - this means that top 5 guys like Luka, AD and Wade are considered not enough help when they lose.. And if you can't win with top 5 teammates, then you simply can't win and need concessions like shortened season, teammate bailouts, league bailout, and opponent injuries.. This is the historical record.
When Lebron had AD, people used to say "what better help could lebron get that's better than AD???.. Does he want Jokic, Giannis or Luka, lolol???".... this used to be a JOKE... It was laughable to consider how much help Lebron needed.. And then he actually got Luka and lost via 1st Round upset!!!.. Ultimately, it's looney tunes that top 5 guys like Wade/Luka/AD aren't enough for a dynasty, 3-peat or 70 wins (Jordan caliber).
He might've been the 4th best Laker. 40 year old LeBron was better than him.
And I actually watched the games. He was pretty awful at the things that help a team win
Update your erroneous eye test because the plus-minus stats are too damning and prove you wrong (woat eye test):
Match and April (post Luka trade/pre-playoffs)
Luka....... +105
Lebron...... -33
Lebron and his bad fit with Luka was the only negative on the team (bad off-ball player), which led to upset loss in the 1st Round.
Proof of the fraud is that Lebron is the only All-NBA selection in history to have a negative plus-minus, and it was a massive one - Lebron was a massive negative once Luka arrived and including playoffs.
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2025 Playoffs
LUKA .... 30/7/6 on 61 TS
^^^ Lebron lost with that via upset
Lebron was also upset twice with 28 ppg from Wade in the 11' Finals and AD in the 24' First Round, or 29 ppg from Kyrie in the 17' Finals.
TLDR: Only Lebron lost a bunch of series with 27-30 ppg from a teammate
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SWAGGY P: "no driving lanes in triangle & too much jumpshooting required for Lebron"
^^This was Gil and Swaggy's response to TMac's claim that Lebron would have more rings if he used the triangle ("triple-post" offense, aka no driving lanes)..
Essentially, the lack of driving lanes along with the ball movement philosophy of the triangle required expert jumpshooting skill/volume/efficiency that Lebron cannot provide.
This is why Kobe is better.. He had expert jumpshooting skill to shoot over defenses, as required when there's no driving lanes - he didn't need spacing like Lebron, while his superior scoring diversity (on-ball and off-ball) allowed better fits, more sophisticated brand of ball (ball movement) and therefore better teams
Swaggy's comments here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3c-9RMy6MR...
The value of systems like the Bulls, Spurs or Warriors is that the extra sophistication of the offense allows superior chemistry to win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player.
Otoh, Lebron's skillset prevents great ball movement and chemistry, so he can't win with normal rosters and must form "super-teams" of multiple franchise players.. And yet his chemistry is worst-ever (turns everyone into spot-up shooter), so he can't produce great teams regardless of roster and has a lottery record against Finals teams.
It's easy to forget the statistical record that Lebron lowers everyone's assists and produces low assist teams - this matters because every series loss of Lebron's playoff career shows deficits in team assists.. So we know that inferior ball movement is his Achilles heel (weak spot), since it's literally the catalyst in every loss.
You are scrapping the bottom of the barrel when you'll even take something negative said about LeBron from Swaggy P.
Next we'll get a quote from the bum down at the 7/11.
LeBron held back Swaggy P from becoming a franchise player.
FG - No one takes you seriously because you can't assess a situation. You have a predetermined outcome (you've actually admitted this). Jordan good. LeBron bad. It doesn't matter what is said, if it agrees with what your outcome is, then it is fact. If it doesn't then they are wrong/lying.
I mean you can't even take on board that the coach and best player for the Sonics in 96 said Rodman was amazing in that Finals as a reasonable opinion. You know, the actual guys that were out there and trying to win. A logical person can admit that Rodman was great in that series. You can think that, and think MJ is GOAT.
FG - No one takes you seriously because you can't assess a situation. You have a predetermined outcome (you've actually admitted this). Jordan good. LeBron bad. It doesn't matter what is said, if it agrees with what your outcome is, then it is fact. If it doesn't then they are wrong/lying.I mean you can't even take on board that the coach and best player for the Sonics in 96 sa
Blasphemy !
Ho man dunno if it’s been posted before …..
3 pages from FG coming , saying John salley knows nothing about basketball too , pippen sucked and Rodman not so great ….
Ho well let’s go :
You are scrapping the bottom of the barrel when you'll even take something negative said about LeBron from Swaggy P.
Next we'll get a quote from the bum down at the 7/11.
For the most part, no one thinks Lebron could play in the triangle
This is common knowledge and intuitive
I'm just providing evidence of various players realizing this.. Most coaches and players already know this though.
Ultimately, Melo says it best (and I'm paraphrasing) - only Kobe and MJ had the obsessive meticulousness to master the triangle, coupled with the goat skill and athleticism.
A lot of people don't realize that simply learning the triangle isn't enough - MASTERY is required, which requires both the goat jumpshooting skill AND desire/meticulous obsession.. Only Kobe and MJ had this combination.. Ultimately, a Bird or Dirk-like jumper is required, along with meticulous obsession with details/perfection, and finally elite athleticism for the top level of dominance.. Accordingly, only Kobe or MJ will do (preferably MJ).
