GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
The 2016 Warriors team was stacked, and was a "LeBron James" away from being seen as a Top 3 team of all time.
Of course, you wouldn't know how good the team was because you didn't watch them.
"Oh, but Green didn't score that many points so he's not good".
KD is obviously better than Jamison.or old Shaq - that isn't the point.The point is that BEFORE those additions, the 09' Cavs and 16' Warriors were 1-man teams with low-producing bums at 2nd option.So saying they were a "66-win team" or 73-win team" implies they were stacked, and therefore robs Lebron or Curry of their carry-jobs.However, we only say that about Curry - we say "
Let’s disregard the fact the the east with LeBron was incredible weak (probably the weakest ever) .
Then pretend the 66 win from Lebron cavs is equivalent with the warriors 73 wins .
Ah yes nvm that regular season shouldn’t mean anything but now for this FG talking point it does count ….
Get better reading comprehension ability and you won't get proven wrong so much and owned in debates
Also, get a spine. You used to argue against lebron
The point was that the term "66-win team" implies stacked team - that's the point... Same thing with "73-win team" even though Curry's high usage teammates (Klay )were lower producers than Lebron's (Mo)
I argued against Lebron being the goat .
Not the horse***** you do to downgrade Lebron so bad with statistical nonsense to believe Lebron isn’t even top 10 lol .
The 2016 Warriors team was stacked, and was a "LeBron James" away from being seen as a Top 3 team of all time.
Of course, you wouldn't know how good the team was because you didn't watch them.
"Oh, but Green didn't score that many points so he's not good".
The Warriors were the first ones to employ an era-changing brand of ball - they were the first ones to bomb threes.
Their futuristic brand of shooting and ball movement is what gave them 73 wins despite a top-heavy statistical distribution, aka 1-man team.
Contrastingly, LeDrive's union with an all-star spacer in 2009 wasn't ground-breaking - Nash did it years earlier and there were other PNR spammers as well.
Ultimately, Lebron's drive-heavy game produced an inferior brand of ball then Curry's goat shooting, so he couldn't do as much (70 wins and dynasty)
The Warriors were the first ones to employ an era-changing brand of ball - they were the first ones to bomb threes.Their futuristic brand of shooting and ball movement is what gave them 73 wins despite a top-heavy statistical distribution, aka 1-man team.Contrastingly, LeDrive's union with an all-star spacer in 2009 wasn't ground-breaking - Nash did it years earlier and there w
Wrong (again).
Warriors were good because they made a lot of 3s. And, the best defensive team in the league.
I'm not sure what you think is a loaded team, but one that has the MVP, another player who was All-NBA 2nd team and 2nd in DPOTY, another one in the All NBA 3rd team, 22ppg+ and the 2nd GOAT shooter, and another guy that almost won 6th man of the year, I'm not sure what you are expecting.
The team was loaded.
Throw in a great mix of complimentary role players in Bogut, Livingston & Co.
Team was amazing.
Any other interpretation is wrong.
Once again, how would you know? You admit you don't watch basketball.
Wrong (again). Warriors were good because they made a lot of 3s. And, the best defensive team in the league.I'm not sure what you think is a loaded team, but one that has the MVP, another player who was All-NBA 2nd team and 2nd in DPOTY, another one in the All NBA 3rd team, 22ppg+ and the 2nd GOAT shooter, and another guy that almost won 6th man of the year, I'm not sure what
come on ...
you know FG
those award means nothing, decided by people who knows nothing about basketball.
^^^ That's what happens when you have the goat shooter.
ultimately, curry was the only unanimous mvp ever for a REASON - he had unprecedented gravity/defensive attention that we've never seen before, which carried low-producing teammates.
I'm not sure what you think is a loaded team, but one that has the MVP, another player who was All-NBA 2nd team and 2nd in DPOTY, another one in the All NBA 3rd team, 22ppg+ and the 2nd GOAT shooter, and another guy that almost won 6th man of the year, I'm not sure what you are expecting.
Imagine a team winning by a lot on TV, and some glossy-eyed kid saying "everyone on that team is SOOO GOOD"
That's what meda awards are... They're for beginner fans and meant to sell the media's narratives.. It's literally the opinion of Rachel Nichols and Skip Bayless (baby-brained when it comes to hoops).
But we know the facts... Klay is a MUCH lower producer than Hornacek or 09' Mo and therefore didn't deserve All-NBA... This alone destroys your idea of spouting media awards by shock-jocks.
Ultimately, the surprising Warriors and their era-changing brand of ball created a winning spotlight that inflated Klay and Dray.. It's similar to Wiggins making all-star in 2022, or Poole being viewed as a "budding star" in the Curry system before his 21 ppg was viewed as nothing for the losing Wizards.. Klay was basically Poole but without the assists/passing.. And no one would notice Klay's defense on the Wizards (which was never that good anyway)..
Wait... What?... I thought Curry was a bad defender???.. Oh wait... He's carrying the scoring load, so that allows the GM to get more defensive help, similar to Bird's #1 defense in 86', or Jokic's Nuggets playing historic defense in the Finals (which locked up a historically-hot team and freight train).
Furthermore, teams with great brand of ball wear out defenses, thus leaving them less capacity for offense, aka great brands of ball face worn-out opponents, thereby lowering their defensive requirements.
Indeed, it's better to have a BAD defender that can carry the scoring load and produce all-time brand of ball then having a good defender that can't do these things
Let’s disregard the fact the the east with LeBron was incredible weak (probably the weakest ever) .
Then pretend the 66 win from Lebron cavs is equivalent with the warriors 73 wins .
Ah yes nvm that regular season shouldn’t mean anything but now for this FG talking point it does count ….
Curry's jumpshooting produced awesome brand of ball and chemistry, while Lebron's ball-domination was inferior in these areas.
That's the difference between 66 wins and 73.
However, they were both playoff fugazi and losers because they were both 1-man teams..
The difference in the 1-man teams is that Lebron gets credit for the carry-job because no one says he had a "66-win team" (which implies stacked)... Otoh, everyone says "73-win team", so Curry doesn't get credit for the carry-job.. But the reality is that KD joined a 1-man team that contained a lower-producing sidekick than 09' Mo and a goat brand of ball that inflated role players or weaker producers (Poole, Wiggins, Klay, Dray)
Do you really think Lebron-ball could win with Poole and Wiggins??? it's impossible... He couldn't win with Klay and Dray either, since Klay doesn't provide the passing that Lebron needs from guards like Mo, Wade or Kyrie... Meanwhile, Dray's entire position and assists would be cratered by Lebron.. History shows that Lebron-ball's weak chemistry requires FRANCHISE PLAYERS to play 2nd and 3rd option for him (super-teams) and can't win with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player (organically).. carry on
Klay was basically Jordan Poole is an excellent take.
Poole was **** before he left the Warriors. Thoughts on that?
Once again. I watched every minute of the Warriors games in 2016. They were great. Absolutely dominate. They win Game 5 and people talk about them as one of the GOAT teams. But you would have nfi as you just look up some stats and think that is the be all and end all.
FG - Q for you.
Who was better. MJ in 1996 Finals or LeBron in 2016 Finals?
Klay was basically Jordan Poole is an excellent take.Poole was **** before he left the Warriors. Thoughts on that?Once again. I watched every minute of the Warriors games in 2016. They were great. Absolutely dominate. They win Game 5 and people talk about them as one of the GOAT teams. But you would have nfi as you just look up some stats and think that is the be all and end al
lolol Prime Klay was actually pretty damn good.
Prime Klay is great because he would immediately make any team he plays for better.
It's weird (not really), but you think FG would be talking up Klay. He's probably a Top 10 player of all time off the ball, which FG preaches is the "best type of basketball". But saying Klay is good, makes LeBron look better. And we can't have that.
I think the FG-AI program goes into an error loop when something like that happens.
Not that good:
09' MO......... 2.3 BPM... 0.165 WS.48... 3.1 VORP... 17.2 PER
16' KLAY...... 1.8 BPM... 0.144 WS/48... 2.5 VORP... 18.6 PER
We know that Lebron needs a lot of playmaking help like Wade, Mo, Kyrie, Rondo, IT and Westbrook, so Klay couldn't replace Mo due to no playmaking
So Curry did more with less
Klay is also trash in the Finals
Prime Klay is great because he would immediately make any team he plays for better.It's weird (not really), but you think FG would be talking up Klay. He's probably a Top 10 player of all time off the ball, which FG preaches is the "best type of basketball". But saying Klay is good, makes LeBron look better. And we can't have that.I think the FG-AI program goes into an error l
We know that Lebron needs a lot of playmaking help like Wade, Mo, Kyrie, Rondo, IT and Westbrook, so Klay couldn't replace Mo due to no playmaking
So Curry did more with less
Klay is also trash in the Finals, and again, there's no way around his lack of passing, so he couldn't replace Mo
2022 Poole.... 19 on 59.8 TS... 16.1 PER <--- budding star
2025 Poole.... 21 on 59.1 TS... 16.6 PER <--- Harvey Grant
Not really sure what you are trying to point out, but it was in the playoffs in 22 when Poole played his best.
He was a low efficient shooter in 22, that had a good run of games that time perfectly with when the Warriors needed him. I don't think the Warriors win a chip without him.
Overall in the playoffs he was 17ppg on 65.4% TS. WS/48 of 0.151.
He was particularly great in the early rounds where he scored 19+ ppg on better than 50/40/90 splits (first 3 rounds).
More importantly he gave the Warriors another option. He spread the floor and gave Curry time to rest. Of course you wouldn't know this, having never watched the games.
He was **** in the Finals.
We know that Lebron needs a lot of playmaking help like Wade, Mo, Kyrie, Rondo, IT and Westbrook, so Klay couldn't replace Mo due to no playmaking
So Curry did more with less
Klay is also trash in the Finals, and again, there's no way around his lack of passing, so he couldn't replace Mo
You're going to have to make your mind up if you think LeBron forces players into being shooters or needs a lot of playmaking help.
You're going to have to make your mind up if you think LeBron forces players into being shooters or needs a lot of playmaking help.
Even though the playmaker's assists were inevitably reduced, 4-7 apg was still required from Mo, Wade, Kyrie, Snow, Rondo and others .. So Klay's 2 APG (can't playmake) won't work and can't replace Mo.
4-7 apg is a significant reduction from their normal capability, but still far more than Klay can provide, since he isn't a playmaker at all.. When you take away the Curry system, Klay is basically a little better than Korver offensively
Not really sure what you are trying to point out, but it was in the playoffs in 22 when Poole played his best.He was a low efficient shooter in 22, that had a good run of games that time perfectly with when the Warriors needed him. I don't think the Warriors win a chip without him.Overall in the playoffs he was 17ppg on 65.4% TS. WS/48 of 0.151.He was particularly great in the
^^^ Lebron never won with guys that were Poole-caliber - he always needed franchise players like Wade, Kyrie, AD, Bosh, and Love..
That's why he never won with peak Mo, who was better than Poole, while Wiggins never reached Jamison level, or even peak Zydrunas .. bron-ball lacks the chemistry to win with this lower level of talent that Curry won with
And Poole still be needs to handle the rock a little bit, so he would disappear alongside Lebron just like Clarkson, Hughes, Ingram and others
No one thinks Lebron could turn perennial losers like Poole and Wiggins into a winners, especially since Poole needed development - we know that no one developed from low producer to meaningful producer on Lebron's watch, since his high scoring primary ballhandler skillset (many unassisted buckets) leaves teammates standing in spot-up roles.. Lebron's ball-dominance is particularly egregious because he starts at forward where his hold-time and assisted rate is extremely abnormal, thereby intensifying the "spot-up" role effect on teammates
Recent thread cliffs
itt we learn that when a primary ball-handler starts at a different position (like SF), it creates 2 point guard lineups, such as Lebron + Snow/Mo/Kyrie/Chalmers/Rondo.. These are all playmaking point guards, so a pure spot-up guy with zero playmaking like Klay could never replace Mo, or any of the other playmaking teammates that Lebron had..
Furthermore, Lebron's 2 point guard lineups entail 2 guys on the floor with a point guard hold-time and low assisted rate, so teammates have less hold-time and assists than they have in traditional 1 PG lineups on other teams.. The lowering of teammates' assists creates low assist teams, which matters because every series loss of Lebron's playoff career shows deficits in team assists, aka inferior ball movement is the catalyst in every loss..
Essentially, for Lebron's team to win a playoff series, they must overcome his inherent flaw of low team assists by getting more assists than the opposing team.. When they can't overcome his flaw, they lose, while also having a lottery record against Finals teams (22-33).
LUKA:
"I wait 2 seconds until the help defender vacates paint due to defensive 3 seconds - THEN I DRIVE"
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VqzkIR0Zrm...
Defensive 3 seconds mandates an empty paint and that's if the spacing/three-point shooting hasn't already drawn all the defenders out
Btw, the top 5 scorers today are 1-way players that play 60-70 games and about 6 back-to-backs, while 87' MJ played 82 games as a 2-way player and 25 back-to-backs.. This is from the video
FG - Q for you.
Who was better. MJ in 1996 Finals or LeBron in 2016 Finals?
Imagine if Mathurin dominated SGA in the Finals, or Pippen dominated Barkley - it's impossible to lose in these scenarios, and the 1st option wouldn't have to play that well to win.
For example, the 1st option could average 24 and 6 TO's for the first 4 games to get a 1-3 deficit - that's what Lebron did... Meanwhile, MJ dominated to get a 3-0 lead.
^^^ If we play out this scenario 100 times, Lebron loses 99 times and MJ wins 99 times.
Based on this reality, MJ played better because he didn't choke for 4 games and cause near-certain loss like Lebron did, thereby needing unlikely bailouts from the league and teammates.. In addition to the unlikely bailouts, the reason Lebron got away with choking for 4 games is because his sidekick was dominating the league MVP (unprecedented help and unlosable situation) - this includes 30 on 53% for Kyrie in the last 3 games.. Lebron had an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention, so he never had to defeat max defensive attention like MJ did on all 6 Finals.
So yes, Jordan played better in his worst Finals then Lebron played in his "so-called" best Finals (his most dominant Finals was actually 2012, even though it was against babies).. The fact that you need to compare Lebron's perceived best Finals to Jordan's worst makes the case that Jordan is far superior... If we look at Lebron's worst Finals in 2013, 2011, 2007, or 2014, there's no comparison - Jordan's 96' Finals is easily superior.
It should be noted that the Heat didn't win with the FMVP on the floor in the 13' Finals - Lebron had a zero plus/minus and negative net rating for the series.. Similar to the 16' Finals, Lebron's choking through 3 games (16 on 39%) caused a deficit that required teammate bailout.. Also, his 23 on 43% was insufficient through 6 games, while Jordan's 27 on 42% and better true shooting would've been enough (96' Finals, aka MJ's "worst")
Imagine if Mathurin dominated SGA in the Finals, or Pippen dominated Barkley - it's impossible to lose in these scenarios, and the 1st option wouldn't have to play that well to win.For example, the 1st option could average 24 and 6 TO's for the first 4 games to get a 1-3 deficit - that's what Lebron did... Meanwhile, MJ dominated to get a 3-0 lead.
Can we just sticky this on the first page so people know the credibility of FG straight away.
