GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread

Jordan grew single-digit rookies into meaningful producers, while Lebron received ready-made stars and never grew anyone - Kyrie was all-star MVP in 2014 before Lebron arrived, while Mo was already at 17/6 before averaging 18/4 alongside Lebron (and then 16/4).

In addition to never growing young guys like Jordan did, Lebron has a long list of stars that he cratered, while Jordan never did.. The only notable players that maintained their averages alongside Lebron were elite shooters like Mo or Kyrie, or someone that was better than an older Lebron like AD - everyone else cratered like Jamison, Bosh, Love, Westbrook, Ingram, Hughes, and many more... Again, Lebron never grew young players (Jordan did) and Lebron cratered tons of guys (Jordan never did).

The reason that Lebron can't grow young players and craters guys is because his skillet increases his teammates' assisted buckets/spot-up role - this craters their assists and stalls young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.. This is statistical fact - Lebron lowers everyone's assists by turning them into spot-up shooter (increasing their assisted buckets)... And again, it matters that Lebron imposes spot-up roles that lower everyone's assists, since Lebron's team had lower team assists in every series loss of his playoff career - it's the catalyst in every loss.

Ultimately, Kyrie was the #1 pick and considered a franchise player for a period of time, while Siakam never was... Currently, neither is considered a franchise player, similar to Pippen's entire career - he was never considered franchise player because he entered the league as a scrawny 7 ppg rookie and never reached a franchise player level, similar to Siakam.. To Siakam's credit, his 20 ppg isn't a fugazi like Pippen, who couldn't reach 15 ppg outside the system (mostly a dunker).. Ultimately, it's STATISTICAL FACT that Pippen never played above a prime Siakam, Iguodala or Shawn Marion level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.. He literally never hit a big shot or "took over", or even get hot.. That's why his book was called "unguarded" (no one guarded him)...

And of course I would consider Magic to be a franchise player alongside MJ because Magic was the goat point guard, while Pippen was just a dunker and stunk by comparison.. Pippen is like a "Klay", while Magic is Magic - there's no comparison.. It would be like saying Klay is a franchise player like Jokic or Luka.

I posted a video earlier of MJ vigorously praising Longley for having a good quarter and encouraging him to keep dominating - so he WANTED teammates to produce - unfortunately, he was on his own because he had a team of role players and the worst scoring help of anyone that won multiple titles

How many top 5 picks did Lebron play with?

I think it's like 40, so I think that's enough to develop someone from low producer to meaningful producer - to develop a "pippen" or "siakam"... It should also be enough to find a lineup to 3-peat, win 70 games or dynasty (Jordan level)

But apparently, Lebron can't reach the Jordan level no matter who we put around him, aka objectively inferior to Jordan.. How many years of futility would convince you?? 30?? 40??... Would he need to lose with Jokic or Giannis?? (because we both know that he would)

Btw, even if Lebron had developed a Siakam - would Siakam be enough? Of course not because Lebron never won with secondary producers - he always needed FRANCHISE PLAYERS at 2nd and 3rd option (to win as 1st option)

What players did Lebron develop from low producer to meaningful producer?

The only example you provided was Reaves, but AD and Lebron were co-scoring leaders, so they both get credit - aka your only example is a half example and it's the exception that proves the rule.

Meanwhile, MJ never cratered anyone - all starters grew and reached career highs alongside him

Accordingly, you guys make up your own facts, just so you can praise a choker that needed to team up with opponents - yet still mostly lost!!!... Ant, Jokic, Dirk, Dwight, Curry and Duncan owned him - Lebron has a lottery record against these guys despite having favorites, preseason favorites and all-star teammates . It's just a bad brand of ball that underachieves rosters compared to peers

Preseason favorites

Lebron...... 8*
Jordan....... 5
Kobe..........4
Curry ....... 3

* Lebron was gifted preseason favorites, while Jordan and Curry had to show they could win with underdog rosters before those rosters were viewed as preseason favorites

Which young players mj grew beside pippen ?
Ps: I’m not including Grant because you keep repeating he suck and is irrelevant shrug .

Yes let me guess .
It’s not normal having the best preseason favourites (which basically means absolutely noting anyway ) when u played the most season ever ….?
U believe mj not retiring wouldn’t have been the favorite ?

For real, to believe pre seasons odds means something and yet all those accolades means nothing is pretty funny .

with load management, MJ would of played 25 years in the league...

BJ, Pippen and Grant grew from single-digit rookies to meaningful producers, while Oakley, Sam Vincent, Paxson and Woolridge grew alongside MJ

Lebron set the record for consecutive preseason favorites with 6 straight from 2011 to 2016 - the previous record was 3, so Lebron simply had way more help than anyone in history

Btw, preseason odds can be used to show trends, such as Lebron falling from preseason favorite to underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16'), except the Allen miracle.. The fall to underdog is due to inferior brand of ball and chemistry, since the talent was initially favored/preseason favorite.. Lebron routinely won 50 games with preseason favorites, hence the fall to underdog

He took all of 94, most of 95, all of 99, 00, 01 off and was still washed at 40

Karl Malone played in the same era as Jordan. He didn't need years off and played more minutes than any player after him except LeBron.

The next active player on the all time minutes list is Paul at 21st.

im not sure competing in AA baseball with all the travel is vacation or time off but meh.

at 40, averaging 20ppg on 1 leg and being injured throughout the season while still playing 82 games is kinda of a funny way to call it being washed out.

today players arent even injured and they take a day off...

I do love the oldies talking about all the minutes and no resting. Imagine if they played now and their teams kept losing and they kept getting outplayed down the stretch of games/seasons. They wouldn't understand why. It would be funny.

There's a reason people are playing less minutes and less games. Because that gets the best results. If it didn't, they wouldn't do it. It's not for fun.

yes tell that to ben simmons, the next magic johnson...

Meanwhile the Joker: hold my beer...probably literally. probably has a few before the game, takes a nap, gets w/e 53 14 11 on like 23 shots. thinks about horses or something the whole time.

Yeah, it's probably official now that Joker has moved past Jordan.

Jerry West made a good point about Jordan, saying he was the best offensive and best defensive player in the league ... and that was something unheard of in the league. Going along with that line of thinking, I went to Chamberlain.

He was the best offensive player in the league.
He was arguably, along with Russell, the best defensive player in the league.
He was also the best rebounder in the league.
He was also a very good passer for a big man.
He was the best Iron Man (giving his teams obscene amounts of minutes per game of greatness).
He also spearheaded the two GOAT teams in the history of the league before Jordan's Bulls.
("Hack a Wilt" never became a thing, but that was certainly a weakness.)

And that's kind of his resume. Seen from that angle, it can seem a bit dubious that anyone else can be claimed to be in competition with that resume. I realize there are other angles -- and I have an emotional pull toward Jordan myself -- but I don't know what overrules this resume. 6-for-6 in the Finals with 6 Finals MVPs? Maybe.

He was also always listed as 6'6" to go along with this 6-6-6 trend.

Hell, I didn't even think about him being the Antichrist. Good point. You know they called him the "Black Jesus," and that could have been cover for the truth. That's the way that religious stuff works. 😃

An interesting look at Jordan's last two NCAA tournaments after of course winning it his freshman year. Two big upsets. Each year they ran into a very hot shooting team -- Georgia 56% and Indiana 65% -- and Jordan fouled out of both games. Quite surprising that he wasn't more protected than that, given that Vitale was already anointing the guy and it was coming true before our very eyes.

I count college in the GOAT debate. One reason I have Kareem ranked a lot greater than most. Jordan also gets great kudos for the college career, but interesting how it ended his last two years.

It's interesting. In my lifetime there was a period where Jordan was clearly the best player. Then a mixed period of Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Kobe, Nowitzki etc. Then a period where LeBron was clearly the best player. Then a mixed period of James. Durant, Curry, Giannis, Harden, etc. And now Jokic has been the clear best for an extended period. If anybody is the 4th guy in this group it's definitely Shaq. The period between Jordan and Lebron was mostly the Shaq era.

But he doesn't fit the mold. Randoms usually want to throw Kobe in as the 3rd guy in the modern era. Jokic is European, white, not a high flyer. He's missing the titles. It'll be really interesting to see how his reputation amongst the general basketball fan base changes if he ever gets a strong team around him and wins a couple more during this peak he's having. How much will it take before the debate starts regularly being about if Jokic is the GOAT?

Leading the league in rebounds and assists while being 7th in scoring is absurd. Has anyone ever lead in rebounds and assists before? I see Wilt one year led in total assists, but not in assists per game. And he led in rebounds that year while being 4th in scoring.

So for the 2020's so far, Jokic is the total leader in....

Points
Rebounds
Assists
Steals

He's basically having the greatest individual decade ever surely.

Don't most people have Kareem 3rd?

Joker is significantly better than Kobe. It's not close. And he's still in his prime.