Aria (Las Vegas, NV)
Hello Two Plus Two Community!
My name is Kat, I am the Poker Host for the Aria Poker Room, I am starting this thread to p
As others have mentioned, a lot of the problem is the false advertising that comes with 5/5/rock. Many bigger PLO games around the country come with a gentleman's agreement to straddle. 5/5 is typically 5/5/10.Recs come to Aria thinking it's 5/5/10. But it's 5/5/10/20. $5,000 isn't enough for one session.They drop down to 1/2. They straddle to try to play bigger. But no one els
You’re asking for A LOT of changes. If you want to fill the gap between 1/2 and 5/5, just allow button straddles.
At 5/5/rock, it gets rid of the “death seat.” And if a nit wants to min buy and not button straddle, he’s only costing himself money.
At 1/2, you get a lot more straddles. 10 straddle is more appropriate for a 1k buy-in than 1 and 2 blinds. And stacks will move up and down more than $100 in a day.
You’re asking for A LOT of changes. If you want to fill the gap between 1/2 and 5/5, just allow button straddles.At 5/5/rock, it gets rid of the “death seat.” And if a nit wants to min buy and not button straddle, he’s only costing himself money.At 1/2, you get a lot more straddles. 10 straddle is more appropriate for a 1k buy-in than 1 and 2 blinds. And stacks will move up and
NL has 1/3, 2/5, and 5/10. Is it too much to ask for a mid-stakes (2/5) PLO game when there's clearly a lot of interest for it?
You’re asking for A LOT of changes. If you want to fill the gap between 1/2 and 5/5, just allow button straddles.At 5/5/rock, it gets rid of the “death seat.” And if a nit wants to min buy and not button straddle, he’s only costing himself money.At 1/2, you get a lot more straddles. 10 straddle is more appropriate for a 1k buy-in than 1 and 2 blinds. And stacks will move up and
Button straddle is the worst thing ever, really not a fan of it, makes the blinds play really tight.
The Wynn solved this straddle issue in their bigger holdem games to 2 blinds and a BB ante, as players would insist they are playing 2 straddles, so games were not as advertised
I personally think omaha works well as a 3 blind game, no straddles, this is common in Londons main casino and works very very well, stops the odd person skipping straddles and really drives the action
The general consensus seems to be that button straddle is bad for the game and I recall that being the primary reason Wynn floor said they don’t allow button straddles in PLO games.
Button straddle is bad for a tight game (like Vegas NL). I definitely agree it makes a tight game worse. Pros who button straddle in a tight game are actually giving a little bit of money away.
But in a loose live game (most PLO games), it's very good for the game!
I hear the "bad for the blinds" argument all the time. When you can potentially play for 1k stacks and 5k pots, why have sympathy for the blinds losing $1 and $2?
And with the rock in 5/5, the straddle position is all over the place anyway. Why not keep it consistently in one place so there's no death seat?
I'm getting the impression that Vegas caters too much to tight–solid grinders. Poker rooms pride themselves on being the lowest rake anywhere in the world. It's counterintuitive, but higher rake ($10 per hand or $10+ per half hour) is actually good for the game.
Button straddle is the worst thing ever, really not a fan of it, makes the blinds play really tight.The Wynn solved this straddle issue in their bigger holdem games to 2 blinds and a BB ante, as players would insist they are playing 2 straddles, so games were not as advertisedI personally think omaha works well as a 3 blind game, no straddles, this is common in Londons main cas
Like someone else said, having 5/10/20, 2/5/10, and 1/2 with 5 bring-in would be perfect. But you have to work with what's already there. It's easier to just open up a button straddle (maybe just for PLO) than kill 5/5/rock, create two new games, and change the buy-in for 1/2.
The 1/2 with 5 game is still brilliant action regardless and doesnt need changing. So many terrible players just punting it about, I played a big sample over 2 weeks and had a very strong hourly for what seemed like a small game at first.
5/5/10 no rock would be my preference, and anything bigger be 25/25 which is quite common in other rooms
Either way, Aria has my business and im looking forward to my stay next year
Button straddle is bad for a tight game (like Vegas NL).
I'm getting the impression that Vegas caters too much to tight–solid grinders. Poker rooms pride themselves on being the lowest rake anywhere in the world. It's counterintuitive, but higher rake ($10 per hand or $10+ per half hour) is actually good for the game.
There's nothing wrong with the PLO games in Vegas. Raising the rake isn't going to help the action. That's absurd.
I do get that it's a big jump from 1/2 to 5 5. I agree with that.
I was in this situation before.
The 1/2 with 5 game is still brilliant action regardless and doesnt need changing. So many terrible players just punting it about, I played a big sample over 2 weeks and had a very strong hourly for what seemed like a small game at first.5/5/10 no rock would be my preference, and anything bigger be 25/25 which is quite common in other roomsEither way, Aria has my business and i
That's probably why they haven't made any changes yet.
It's tough for a lot of people to move up from 1/2 to 5/5, but realistically, they can take 400-dollar shots in that game or 1K shots when the action is good.
Also, the straddle is optional. You don't have to do it. If anyone goes to Aria and doesn't want to straddle and you get harassed, report it. Let us know how it goes.
My biggest downswing in 5 5 (with or without the straddle) is less than 20K, over a fairly large sample. I feel very comfortable with 60 to 100K in cash to play that game. 30K gets me started very nicely. Even 10K downswings are not happening very frequently, although they do happen.
Crazy the games were already bad here all the way back in 2010
After giving some more thought, I feel like the majority of people are intimidated to go in and play 5 5 and not straddle. Let's just pretend like you were going to go in there and play 5 5 and not straddle at Aria.
The regulars will point you out to the table. "Seat 4" doesn't want to straddle. Then they will start scheming how to talk you into doing it. If that doesn't work, they might decide to go to a "straddle" table if another table was running. Also, if you tried to table select and go back to that other table, people would likely complain, but you should be allowed to go to the best table at the venue.
I saw 2 different French guys who are super friendly with the day in day out grinders, and other European players there particularly being rude to American pros or other tourists / pros, who didn't want to do it. I never saw any regular there take up for the guys who didn't want to straddle. This in addition to the day-to-day grinders that were *******s to people that didn't want to straddle.
They were basically treated like crap to be honest. As pointed out earlier, it's not a straddle if it's mandatory, it's an extra blind.
I was initially saying it's the culture here in Vegas that everybody straddles at 5 5 10 which is true, but at what cost is the question.
My current viewpoint is that I'm not going to complain about it, because when I go to play, I want to be like Tom Brady and deal with the situation as it is, throw touchdowns, stay focused on my game and crush it. If I were to go in there and deal with this nonsense, it wouldn't be worth it.
My current opinion is that I think they should ban the straddle there. 1/2 up to 5 5 10 20 is too big of a jump. The straddle isn't optional in reality.
If they do ban the straddle at Aria, the Straddle pros could go play at the Wynn if they actually wanted to play the game with a straddle. The games at Aria could be much better actually. The tourists will continue to come in there. Blind raises can happen if they want to spice it up.
The rock itself encourages tight play and gives short stackers a huge edge.Triple blind is such a better structure.The not advertised part making it 5/5/10/20 chases so many recs to 1/2. Yea recs agree to it once , lose their 800 dollars and most just play 1/2 the rest of the week. I could not go to Vegas for six months and when I walk into Aria I'll know 6-8 players at almost
Spot on!
I'll chime in as a semi-regular who has 2500 hours at the Aria rock game. I am indifferent about straddles, and I will straddle as long as the rest of the table will do it. I don't like the social pressure that seems to always pop up when someone doesn't want to straddle. I think a large part of the straddle culture at aria is that it's been on for so long, that its more abou
For me, this supports my theory that almost none of the Aria pros there would ever put out a genuine straddle, but they only are interested in doubling the stake of the game.
Combined with the social pressure, this seems to possibly qualify as a scam
I'll chime in as a semi-regular who has 2500 hours at the Aria rock game.
I find that win rates is more a function of effective stack sizes rather than the blind sizes and since the max buy in is capped at $2k, and many people still buy in less than that or short buy, the winrate increase from a $20 straddle is not anywhere near as significant as you probably suspect.
If the 5 5 10 20 stakes have attracted a stable of European players to come over to Vegas to play in the Aria games, at this point, I feel like win rates now are probably less than they were before the straddle was not allowed.
They didn't have straddles there a few years ago, and the games were much better from what I've been told. It's hard to know how much of that is due to the higher stakes attracting more competition and also being too intimidating for recreational players.
Why not do a 30-day ban on the straddle and see how this plays out, or just flat out ban it permanently to avoid the false advertising issue.
Can anybody provide win rates from 3 years ago when they didn't have straddles compared to present day.
If the 5 5 10 20 stakes have attracted a stable of European players to come over to Vegas to play in the Aria games, at this point, I feel like win rates now are probably less than they were before the straddle was not allowed.They didn't have straddles there a few years ago, and the games were much better from what I've been told. It's hard to know how much of that is due to
If you ban the staddle they'll agree to a dead 20 where you can't limp (have to come in for a min of 30)
Getting rid of the rock makes way more sense.
Win rates were definitely higher a few years ago. Now part of that is games naturally tend to get a little harder over time as bad players quit/go bust/ get less bad. But the combo of scaring off recs and attracting bottom of the barrel insufferable pros bc the game is "bigger" than most public plo games is a bad one.
If you ban the staddle they'll agree to a dead 20 where you can't limp (have to come in for a min of 30)Getting rid of the rock makes way more sense.Win rates were definitely higher a few years ago. Now part of that is games naturally tend to get a little harder over time as bad players quit/go bust/ get less bad. But the combo of scaring off recs and attracting bottom of the b
I don't a see a consensus on this one unfortunately.
I would just ban straddle at 5 5 10 rock game, and add in a 10 10 25 rock (1k to 5k game also no straddles) and a 25 25 50 game uncapped buy-in. Because I saw that it worked in FL
If they got rid of the rock, how would that work? Are you modeling this off of a successful game that's already running?
If you ban the staddle they'll agree to a dead 20 where you can't limp (have to come in for a min of 30)Getting rid of the rock makes way more sense.Win rates were definitely higher a few years ago. Now part of that is games naturally tend to get a little harder over time as bad players quit/go bust/ get less bad. But the combo of scaring off recs and attracting bottom of the b
"insufferable pros"
No ****!
For reals
This is amusing when you have one 1/2 pro come into the game with 600 dollars and a short stacker with 400 dollars complaining that there's no straddle going on.
I guess it makes sense because the short stacks get the biggest advantage with the straddle going on there
Still a great place to play PLO IMO
It's hit or miss but it can def be very good at times. With the best rake structure in the world in Vegas, you don't need as much of an edge as you do in the high rake places.
Also, the dealers there are pretty damn good. The dealers in hard rock were God awful. Absolutely some of the worst I've ever seen. Plus, rake was higher.
I can recommend this place to play at, but if you don't straddle expect pushback. It's 50/50 if the floor people would help you.
I made this post in the Bellagio thread.
Today, I learned of a new Bellagio policy.
Dealers are no longer allowed to hand shuffle without permission from a floor person. They also aren't allowed to reach into the hand shuffle machine and fix a deck which has become stuck.
Basically, anytime the automatic shuffler doesn't work perfectly, it will be necessary to call the floor over to get permission to do whatever is necessary. So, even the most obvious fixes to easy problems are going to cause a delay before the next hand is dealt.
This is not a policy created by poker room management. For some reason, it's coming from casino management. I heard there was some incident at Aria which has caused this.
Does anyone know what happened at Aria? Or has something else caused this policy to be enacted?
If you ban the staddle they'll agree to a dead 20 where you can't limp (have to come in for a min of 30)Getting rid of the rock makes way more sense.Win rates were definitely higher a few years ago. Now part of that is games naturally tend to get a little harder over time as bad players quit/go bust/ get less bad. But the combo of scaring off recs and attracting bottom of the b
I don't think they will be able to run a scam that elaborate in the 5 5 10 20 games at Aria, where everybody blind raises and then on top of that you have to come in for 30 to come in and limping isn't allowed. That's a much tougher scam to pull off for the regulars there.
I played at Aria around 5 to 10 times in 2022, and I didn't see any kind of straddle or blind raises running at all. It was straight up 5 5 with a rock.
I've seen the blind raise to 20, and 30 to come in at the NL games in Hard rock, which is what they did after the straddle was banned due to excessive bullying. It's possible to pull off this kind of a setup, but I'm skeptical they could do it in Vegas with more tourists coming in. Straddles were never allowed there at 5 5 10 PLO w / rock in Hollywood, because the rock is already a straddle.
On Tuesday, January 6, management made a proposal to the two tables of 5/5 with 10 rock and “forced” 20 straddle:
5/10/20 or
5/10 with 20 rock
The players unanimously voted for the latter. And now the game has changed to 5/10 with 20 rock (same 400–2, 000 buy-in).
Can someone explain to me why everyone chose the MUCH tighter structure—where nits pay only 15 per orbit instead of 35?
5/10/20 would’ve been the nuts.
Very interesting, I know I am in the minority who is skeptical about the Deckmate’s capabilities and security after reading the white papers (and prefer a hand shuffled game anyway). I almost only play Aria PLO during summer where the cash games are outside of the main room and hand shuffled. I would love to hear what happened that made them put up a stink especially with no bbj jackpot that could be nullified.
On Tuesday, January 6, management made a proposal to the two tables of 5/5 with 10 rock and "forced" 20 straddle:5/10/20 or5/10 with 20 rockThe players unanimously voted for the latter. And now the game has changed to 5/10 with 20 rock (same 400-2, 000 buy-in).Can someone explain to me why everyone chose the MUCH tighter structure-where nits pay only 15 per orbit instead of 355
Because most of the Aria regs are either morons with no common sense, super tight or both.
I'm sure the 400 dollar hit and runners love it.
On Tuesday, January 6, management made a proposal to the two tables of 5/5 with 10 rock and "forced" 20 straddle:5/10/20 or5/10 with 20 rockThe players unanimously voted for the latter. And now the game has changed to 5/10 with 20 rock (same 400-2, 000 buy-in).Can someone explain to me why everyone chose the MUCH tighter structure-where nits pay only 15 per orbit instead of 355
Home field advantage. Gets the GTO people off of their game a bit
