GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
This is just Pippen trying to make it not look like Jordan carried him. Pippen was a very good player. But he clearly benefitted greatly playing next to the greatest player ever.
Just like Draymond last night acting like he's better than Barkley at this stage in his career compared to Brakley in this stage in his career. Acting like barkley was a joke at that stage in his career. Draymond is not close to Charles Barkley. Barkley was the best player on all his teams(maybe not at that stage, as hakeem was there, Pippen was there too, Barkley better than Pippen for career but forget at that stage. But he still averaged like 16 ppg, and i think 12rpg) so nobody ever lifted his career. While Draymond got to play with Steph Curry. The greatest shooter ever. I like Draymond, love how he plays hard, so i don't want to be disrespectful, but you're not close to Charles Barkley. Barkley is a legend!
Sometimes people forget how good Barkley was prolly becasue he played in the jordan era. So he looks small to Jordan but to everyone else he was big. I even fall victim to forgetting how good he was until i start thinking about it again. His self depricating funny style, and seems like a really nice guy, that maybe makes people forget that this guy was a beast on the court!
I think Draymond was just trying to be funny taking the role of Shaq on that show of clowning Barkley. But he chose the wrong subject matter to joke about.
Draymond you had a great career through hard work, kinda like Rodman did. But i think Draymond forgets how good Barkley was. Well he was too young to actually see Barkley's career.
You could see Ernie, Kenny, and Charles get quiet all thinking... Huh? Barkley prolly thought bout saying something but he kept it classy.
So outside Billups, Parker, Curry, Magic and Isiah. And LeBron.
Well, that's a lot of players...
Pierce didn't realize that none of those PG's fit the criteria:
* Magic wasn't a leading scorer or a high scorer.
* Rip Hamilton led the Pistons in scoring for the 2004 regular season, playoffs and Finals.. So Billups isn't on the list either.
* Duncan led the Spurs in scoring in the 07' regular season and Playoffs, while leading the assists in the Finals, so Parker wasn't a traditional PG, nor the team's 1st option.
* Curry isn't a traditional PG and the Warriors' system makes the case that the PG position should be minimized - the 90's Bulls and Spurs system also makes this case, so "dynasty -ball" simply minimizes the traditional PG position.
^^^^ So the only example is Lebron, who needed to stack the deck and team-up to win, and STILL mostly lost - he's the poster boy for how maximizing the PG role underachieves rosters.
Again, since it's suboptimal to have a primary ballhandler score a lot, the best primary ballhandlers are inferior to the best of other positions.
So outside Billups, Parker, Curry, Magic and Isiah. And LeBron.
Well, that's a lot of players...
Pierce didn't realize that none of those PG's fit the criteria:
* Magic wasn't a leading scorer or a high scorer.
* Rip Hamilton led the Pistons in scoring for the 2004 regular season, playoffs and Finals.. So Billups isn't on the list either.
* Duncan led the Spurs in scoring in the 07' regular season and Playoffs, while leading the assists in the Finals, so Parker wasn't a traditional PG, nor the team's 1st option.
* Curry isn't a traditional PG and the Warriors' system makes the case that the PG position should be minimized - the 90's Bulls and Spurs system also makes this case, so "dynasty -ball" simply minimizes the traditional PG position.
^^^^ So the only example is Lebron, who needed to stack the deck and team-up to win, and STILL mostly lost - he's the poster boy for how maximizing the PG role underachieves rosters.
Again, since it's suboptimal to have a primary ballhandler score a lot, the best primary ballhandlers are inferior to the best of other positions.
Well, I mean the Bulls had won zero Championships in 1990. In the next 8 years Pippen was a Top 5-10 player.
People said the Bulls were a 1-man team throughout the 90's (Reggie Miller, Isiah, Magic, many more) and also now (Kenny Smith, Barkley, Shaq, many more).. It's the consensus and statistical fact (the most top-heavy title teams ever).. This is obvious common knowledge that must be taught to new fans that have been defrauded by Lebron media.
It's also important to note that the 91' Bulls and the 17' Warriors had the 2 most dominant playoff runs of all-time.
This matters because it means that Jordan produced a goat team in 91' even though Pippen wasn't an all-star and wasn't considered a top 25 player.
And since Pippen was considered unreliable in 90' and 91', we can conclude that championship spotlight contributed to him getting media accolade from 92' onwards, especially considering his down year in 93' (worse than 05' Hughes), and his bricklaying from 96-98'.. Career 2nd options have ALWAYS needed championship spotlight to get All-NBA (Klay, Pippen, Pau, Dumars, Worthy, Manu, Parker, Jalen Williams, Chet Holmgren, etc, etc), and no one benefitted from the winning spotlight more than Pippen.
Furthermore, there's never been a bigger statistical gap between 1st and 2nd option than MJ/Pippen, so the most carried 2nd option ever should never sniff MVP votes in seasons that MJ played - that would be like Jalen Williams placing 6th for MVP last year for example, which is obviously absurd.. Pippen was simply inflated by the winning spotlight to underserved media accolade, even though he never played above a prime Larry Nance or Shawn Marion caliber.
Ultimately, many examples have been posted itt of people in the 90's saying the Bulls were a 1-man team, while you've provided zero examples of anyone saying they were stacked..
Show us these quotes saying the Bulls were a one man team from after they had won championships?
They were always seen as a batman and robin team, and a Horace Grant/Dennis Rodman type guy as a 3rd was never won without. Pippen and Grant were a 55 win team with 7.9/3.0/2.2 Pete Myers starting 81 games. Steve Kerr 8.6/2.6/1.6 started all 82 games as well.
And since Pippen was considered unreliable in 90' and 91', we can conclude that championship spotlight contributed to him getting media accolade from 92' onwards, .
Or we can just do what any reasonable person would do and conclude that Pippen becoming good is what took the team to the championship level.
Or we can just do what any reasonable person would do and conclude that Pippen becoming good is what took the team to the championship level.
91' Pippen wasn't considered a top 25 player, and nothing really changed in his ability between 91' and 92'...
Infact, his only good playoff run was 91', since he was horrific from 88-90' and 99-03', while averaging 17 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs, and choking in 94'... He also nearly caused upset loss in 92' by getting dominated by X-Man... Then he averaged 15 on 33% against Dominique in the 93' Playoffs and shot 46.9 true shooting in the Finals (0% on threes) - this low efficiency showed that he couldn't handle additional load, thus forcing MJ to average 41.
So again, the only good playoff run of Pippen's career where he didn't have a bad series was 91', and he wasn't even considered a top 25 player that year... Since he was worse in every other playoffs, his media accolades after 91' can only be attributed to winning spotlight inflation (like Draymond Green).
Show us these quotes saying the Bulls were a one man team from after they had won championships?
Reggie Miller in 1991:
Isiah during the 1993 Finals:
"When you're talking about this Bulls team, you're only talking about Michael Jordan.. So yeah, if you remove me from the Pistons, and remove Magic from the Lakers, and remove Jordan from the Bulls, our casts are obviously better, but the reality is that he hasn't been removed - he's still there and no one has figured out a way to beat this guy."
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2...
^^^ Not true and certainly not during the 1st three-peat..
The gap in production was too big to be a "duo".. It was simply one guy carrying another guy.
This is the biggest statistical gap ever between 1st and 2nd option and therefore the OPPOSITE of a "duo" or Batman/Robin.
CAREER FINALS
Jordan..... 34 ppg... 6.0 apg... 2.8 TO.. 48%
Pippen..... 19 ppg... 5.9 apg... 3.3 TO.. 42%
CAREER PLAYOFFS WITH BULLS
Jordan..... 33 ppg... 5.7 apg... 3.1 TO.. 49%
Pippen..... 18 ppg... 5.3 apg... 2.9 TO.. 45%
^^^ It's statistical fact that Pippen is the most carried 2nd option ever, and therefore should never sniff MVP votes in seasons that MJ played - it would be like Jalen Williams getting 6th for MVP last year (absurd), yet this is how Pippen was treated..
Ultimately, no one paid attention to Pippen's performance because he wasn't responsible for winning - only MJ was held responsible.. So Pippen was never knocked or even noticed when he wet the bed, which was frequently.
PENNY: "With no black Jesus to worry about, so we partied all night before playing the 94' Bulls":
^^^ With no Babe Ruth or Ali-like figure to face, the Bulls were the "letdown" game for everyone all year and the biggest letdown game ever.
So when you claim that Horace and Pippen "were a 55 win team", are you saying they built an organization from scratch into a legit 55-win team that could win 55 every year???
Or were they gifted a fully-developed organization and dynasty... and then had a fluke one-off against sleeping opponents.... before cratering to earth in the playoffs and following season?
The historical record shows that it's the latter
Prior to the 2010's and the beginning of basketball research on the Internet, no one was saying "well Unseld is better than Cowens because he has 5 All-NBA"... Most people had no idea that All-NBA awards existed... Accordingly, media awards prior to 2010 like All-NBA were ceremonial and meant nothing - the media simply voted for the most recognizable names and it wasn't meant for future discussion or rankings - they were just ceremonial.. This differs from today's media awards that are taken seriously because there's far more information at the finger tips of every fan, so debate is expected... So even though it's still just the opinion of a few media members, they're (mistakenly) viewed as a big deal and the final word on player rankings..
Yes, I think I agree with you, Kareem was better than Pippen.
Bulls were nothing without Jordan, other than a 55 win team, that made it to Game 7in the second round to a team that made the Finals.
Bulls were actually the better team in that series.
Bulls were nothing without Jordan, other than a 55 win team, that made it to Game 7in the second round to a team that made the Finals.Bulls were actually the better team in that series.
The Knicks were a Kukoc miracle away from being up 3-0, and they let the Bulls get a 20-point lead in Game 3 before deciding to come back in the 4th.. You simply never played, so you don't know what it's like to "son" someone or let them hang around.. It's called playing with your food... The Knicks knew they could comeback from ANY deficit, sort of like playing a child.. Pippen's goat choke and Kukoc's miracle simply ruined an easy sweep and turned the series into something it wasn't.. Pippen averaged 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter of that series, so the Bulls weren't serious and the result was a foregone conclusion.. The reality is that people waited all year for the bubble to burst and the Bulls to start sucking, but it took a while because no one took them seriously without black Jesus. The placebo effect and MJ's shadow was strong
Indeed, Kareem wasn't "a Pippen".
He was a dominant 1st option.
Guys like Luka, AD, and Wade aren't "pippens" either, and that's how we know Lebron had way more help than Jordan...
Heck, Love and Bosh were considered dominant franchise players before joining Lebron, while Kyrie was #1 pick and all-star MVP before joining Lebron (franchise player).
You don't have LeBron in your top 10. That's laughable.
MJ won nothing in the 80s when he had competition.
Won in the 90s when he had a loaded team.
Won nothing in the 00s.
Most overrated player ever.
Replace MJ with Hakeem and you'd get a similar result. Probably win more because he wouldn't have quit on his team for 2 years.
I was being honest when i said i think Lebron's not top 10. You are not being honest saying Jordan is number 10. But i get you only doing that out of spite that me and fallguy don't put him in the top 10.
I honestly don't know where to rank Lebron. He a tremendous athelete. He has great speed and agility for a big man. He can score and drive to the hoop. But the problem i have where i don't think he's top 10 is a couple of reasons....
1. The Jumper- It's like i watch Lebron's game and say "ok he can drive, he's fast, he's strong, can play defense, but when it comes to the jumper it doesn't match as good as the things i mentioned of where he's near the top. In fact the jumper isn't considered good by the average good nba shooter let alone the great shooters. His shot has improved over the years but it's still just streaky hit or miss/inconsistency. If he was an elite shooter, or close to elte, that would help me have a better chance to see him as a someone somewhere in the top 10.
2. The losses- So many finals with such great talent around him and losing. The loss to Dirk and the Mavericks as the biggest loss. I mean look at all the other's on my list and tell me they wouldn't have won more if they had Wade, Bosh, Ray Allen, and a sharp shooter like Mike Miller as a backup, and other's. You mentioned Hakeem who i put 8th on my list and you didn't even put him in the top 10. So forget about the others above Hakeem on the list, you mean to tell me Hakeem wouldn't win every year, or at least more, with those guys? Also with Kvein Love, and Kyrie C'mon. Then Anthony Davis. Like you want to be in the top 10 of all time you should win more finals than you lose imo, especially with the talent he got to play with. He's had some epic wins, but more epic losses that can't be ignored.
So those are some of the reasons why i don't have Lebron in my top 10. The jumper, and the losses. Like i see a guy talented enough to get to the finals(even though had a buy to the finals alot of years in the weak east) but a guy that didn't know how to finish like the ultra greats like Michael and Kobe. And at some points some thought of him as the opposite of a clutch closer. So that's why i don't see a goat. But he's close to the top 10, and wouldn't put up a big argument with people saying he was in the top 10.
So i don't know but i'd say Lebron is in the top 15 somewhere. I'll say 12, or 11 maybe. If he won more, and lost less, and had a jumper comperable, or at least somewhat closer to Jordan, he would be in my top 10, and maybe number 2 behind Jordan. But he didn't win more, and the jumper was/is not great.
Pretty great career to be the 11th best of all time!
The Knicks were a Kukoc miracle away from being up 3-0, and they let the Bulls get a 20-point lead in Game 3 before deciding to come back in the 4th.. You simply never played, so you don't know what it's like to "son" someone or let them hang around.. It's called playing with your food... The Knicks knew they could comeback from ANY deficit, sort of like playing a child.. Pippe
3 of the Knicks wins were by 1, 4 & 5. Bulls were on their level, and any other interpretation is dumb.
I don't remember any commentary about LeBron trying hard for the first 3 games, "relaxing" for Games 4 & 5, before trying again in Game 6 in the first round.
Maybe, because saying something like that would be dumb.
Yeah Luka definitely isn't Pippen. Pippen wasn't cheering from the bench in a suit during the playoffs.
Yeah Luka definitely isn't Pippen. Pippen wasn't cheering from the bench in a suit during the playoffs.
Number of games missed by Pippen in 6 Championship years - 0
Number of games missed by Grant in first 3 Championships - 0
Number of games missed by Armstrong in first 3 Championships - 0
Number of games missed by Cartwright in first 3 Championships - 0
Number of games missed by Rodman in 2nd 3 Championships - 0
Number of games missed by Harper in 2nd 3 Championships - 0
Number of games missed by Longley in 2nd 3 Championships - 3 (All in the first round)
Number of games missed by Kerr in 2nd 3 Championships - 0
Number of games missed by Kukoc in 2nd 3 Championships - 3 (All in the 2nd round)
And going down the rest of the bench, it's basically the same. Players only missed due to DNP-CP
I guess players didn't get hurt because the game was much easier back then.
I was being honest when i said i think Lebron's not top 10. You are not being honest saying Jordan is number 10. But i get you only doing that out of spite that me and fallguy don't put him in the top 10. I honestly don't know where to rank Lebron. He a tremendous athelete. He has great speed and agility for a big man. He can score and drive to the hoop. But the problem i have
You have Duncan and Shaq in your Top 10.
2. The losses- So many finals with such great talent around him and losing. The loss to Dirk and the Mavericks as the biggest loss. I mean look at all the other's on my list and tell me they wouldn't have won more if they had Wade, Bosh, Ray Allen, and a sharp shooter like Mike Miller as a backup, and other's. You mentioned Hakeem who i put 8th on my list and you didn't even pu
Explain the logic of why losing earlier in the playoffs is better? Do you think in 1995 it was better for MJ to lose to the Magic in the 2nd round, rather than making it to the Finals and losing to Hakeem?
Or losing to the Pistons was better than losing to the Lakers in the Finals.
.
87-93' DEREK HARPER.... 18/3/7 on 47% (36% on 3 attempts)
3 of the Knicks wins were by 1, 4 & 5. Bulls were on their level, and any other interpretation is dumb.
What a joke.
It's similar to the 2008 Hawks taking the Celtics to 7 games, or many other 7 game series - it doesn't mean they're on the same level or anywhere near.. Crazy **** can happen any 1 series and it obviously happened in the 94' ECSF, due the confluence of factors described in the post you responded to.
Anthony Mason was a 18/10/6 point-forward and All-defensive player in 1997, and he locked Pippen down in the 92', 94', and 96' Playoffs.. Pippen averaged 15 on 33% in the 96' ECSF, and 16 on 40% in 92', while getting outplayed by Ewing in 94'.
In addition to Mason (who was better than Kukoc), the Knicks had all-stars like Starks and Oakley to match or exceed Grant, or Derek Harper to presumably destroy BJ... Hubert Davis or Greg Anthony destroy Kerr..
The Knicks had a much better roster WITH mj in the bulls' lineup, especially with X-Man, Mark Jackson and Gerald Wilkins in 92' and other years.. The reality is that Ewing's sidekick outplayed Pippen in the 89' and 92' Playoffs, and Ewing himself destroyed Pippen in 94'.
You have Duncan and Shaq in your Top 10.
Explain the logic of why losing earlier in the playoffs is better? Do you think in 1995 it was better for MJ to lose to the Magic in the 2nd round, rather than making it to the Finals and losing to Hakeem?
Or losing to the Pistons was better than losing to the Lakers in the Finals.
So i guess you mean that Duncan and Shaq didn't have jumpers? Well yeah, but they make the list becasue Duncan dominated the league and won a bunch of championships with much less talent than Lebron had. And i'm forgetful on Duncan's shooting some but i think he had a really good foul line range jumper? But again it's because he did everything else and dominated. Kinda like an old version of Jokic. Except Jokic shoots the 3 better and a better passer. Duncan better on defense.
Shaq, i do find hard to rank because he didn't win without Kobe, except once with Wade but that was at end of his career and more Wade. But he made the list becasue of overall dominance on the court. He made big guys look like little guys and dunk on them. Just so strong and dominant i couldn't keep him out of the top 10. If he ever developed a jumper, and kept in shape, he coulda contended for goat. Still woulda taken Jordan though becasue of that winning mentality.
But why it's so much more important that Lebron needs to be an elite shooter, or close to it, compared to Duncan and Shaq is he was the ball dominant player taking alot of the shots and playing like a pojnt guard alot. So you need to make jumpers otherwise the defense can just stay inside and let you shoot inconsistent jumpers. While Shaq would be dunking, and Duncan would shoot his pattened post up jumper. Or his pattened foul line jumper.
So when Jordan lost to orlando it was when he came out of retirement late in the season. So he wasn't in playoff game shape and his rust, plus rust of the whole team playing together caused them to lose. Orlando was very good too.
If we're gonna talk losing to the pistons when Jordan had the worst team's in the league then we gotta count Lebron losing all those years in his original cavs stint. And if we're comparing those years Lebron played with very good players Larry Hughes, Mo Williams, and others.
This while Jordan took the worst teams in the league vs not only the best team in the league in the bad boy pistons, but one of the greatest teams in league history. Then eventually he broke through beating the pistons great team and then it was clear sailing from there, other then the out of retirement blip to orlando.
I mean you really want to argue who was more of a winner between Jordan and Lebron? Jordan was the ultimate winner. If there was a picture next to the definition of winning it would show Jordan. While Lebron's career has been up and down on winning. While playing with the best of the best.
Again, Lebron a great career, but he's not Jordan, nobody is!
