GOAT NBA Discussion: Biggest fraud poster: fallguy. Super AIDS Containment thread
Paige is a stat padder too. Earlier in the week her team was up 21 with under 3 minutes and the other team put in all the backups. She stayed on the court and shot all three possessions to score and getting 6 more points. She wasn't happy she only had i think it was 12 points so she stayed in to try and get close to 20 even though 20 is hard for her.
Where 20 for Caitlin is easy. In fact when her team ws up 20 sumthin asked to be taken out of the game at the start of the 4th quarter. She only played 24 minutes and had a 20 points 10 assist game which broke the record for fastest to a 20 point 10 assist game in wnba history. Also added to her record of the most 20 point and 10 assist games that she broke Think she had 21 or 22 points and 10 assists. She broke this record in 50 sumthin games where the only people that held or close to the record took them 500+games to do. She never pads stats. She could care less. Where many other players do.
Dennis Rodman was a more efficient scorer than Jordan and Steph curry. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Rodman wasn't a better offensive player than them. All due respect but we know that efficiency is a misleading stat.
PPG is a hugely misleading stat too but you all seem fine to sort by that
No, the Bulls were better defensively in the playoffs with Jordan on the floor for the 2 years combined... Specifically, the 97' Bulls were 11.8 points better defensively with MJ in the playoffs, and only 1.4 points worse with him in 98'.
And regular season has never mattered much to veterans like 18' Lebron or 98' Jordan, since the Cavs were 6 points worse defensively with Lebron in the 2018 regular season..
So as usual, you're wrong on all counts.. It's just another day on 2p2
Btw, Lebron only makes his teams 5 points better offensively, while old Jordan made the Bulls at least 10-15 points better in 97' or 98' regular season and playoffs.
No, the Bulls were better defensively in the playoffs with Jordan on the floor for the 2 years combined... Specifically, the 97' Bulls were 11.8 points better defensively with MJ in the playoffs, and only 1.4 points worse with him in 98'.
And regular season has never mattered much to veterans like 18' Lebron or 98' Jordan, since the Cavs were 6 points worse defensively with Lebron in the 2018 regular season..
So as usual, you're wrong on all counts.. It's just another day on 2p2
Btw, Lebron only makes his teams 5 points better offensively, while old Jordan made the Bulls 10-15 points better in 97' or 98' regular season and playoffs..
I agree. Ppg can be misleading as well. Any stats can be misleading. That's why the eye test should be the determining factor. And obviously Jordan and Caitlin Clarke win on eye test.
I'm sure Caitlin > Bueckers, but high scoring point guards will always employ a suboptimal brand of ball and therefore require more to win.
Without her raw talent advantage, Caitlin wouldn't be better than Bueckers because Bueckers plays a better WAY.
Recent thread cliffs
Both Lebron and Jordan sometimes made their teams worse defensively in the regular season, but the defensive drop-off with Lebron was much worse than Jordan, while Jordan's offensive impact was two or three times as much as Lebron's..
To summarize, Lebron makes teams worse defensively MORE than Jordan did, while having half or 1/3 the offensive impact.
[QUOTE=fallguy;59309760]I'm sure Caitlin > Bueckers, but high scoring point guards will always employ a suboptimal brand of ball and therefore require more to win.
Without her raw talent advantage, Caitlin wouldn't be better than Bueckers because Bueckers plays a better WAY.
Paige plays a better way because she doesn't have a choice as she's limited to being a normal basketball player. So she's "fundamentals" like Tim Duncan. Not that she's close to Tim Duncan, just wanted to put his name in with fundamentals. Paige plays the system perfectly. She'd be coach White's ideal player to coach. But when a goat arrives you have to adjust and let her be her. Jordan's career would be nothing if Phil Jackson confined him to play within the system. Jordan balled out when he needed to, just like Caitlin is doing when given the chance.
But a better comparison is Steph Curry. If Kerr told Steph stop shooting those transition 3's go for the safe fundamental's play of giving it to someone to try for the "safer" score Steph Curry wouldn't be Steph Curry. He would have been reduced to a system player not taking advantage of his extraordinary talents. Also stats can't account for the psychological trauma of a Steph Curry or Caitlin Clarke brings to other teams when they get hot and rip off a series of 3's in a short amount of time. That's why Durant left okc.
Goats play by different rules and the coach has to recognize that. Jackson did and White maybe will even though she's fought it for almost 3 years.
But Caitlin even though she's part Jordan, part Steph, also distributes the ball like Chris Paul or Magic. She's the complete package. Magic couldn't shoot, she can.
[QUOTE=fallguy;59309760]I'm sure Caitlin > Bueckers, but high scoring point guards will always employ a suboptimal brand of ball and therefore require more to win.Without her raw talent advantage, Caitlin wouldn't be better than Bueckers because Bueckers plays a better WAY.Paige plays a better way because she doesn't have a choice as she's limited to being a normal basketball p
Take Jordan out of the triangle, and it never wins it's first title.
So it's never on the map just like it was never on the map for 50 years prior.
Similarly, take Curry off the Warriors, and the 3ball era would take longer to develop and wouldn't have a gold standard of ball movement and chemistry that the Warriors established.
So even though Paige isn't talented enough to dominate within a system and sort of "make" the system like Curry or MJ, the way she plays allows a system to begin with... Otoh, Caitlin's skillset gets herself stats while teammates are reduced to spot-up shooter and therefore mistakenly reported on as underperforming, aka Caitlin needs more help - BUT SHE DOESN'T - she just needs to play within a system and dominate (achieve the same PPG) within a system like MJ or Curry did.. That way teammates play to capacity and therefore the TEAM plays to capacity. aka no one is reduced to spot-up role just so Caitlin can average 20/10
^^^ obviously troll videos where the videomaker admits that they actually know Jordan is GOAT, but nonetheless here's responses to the 3 main points:
* We know that Jordan would shoot threes well at today's volumes because he always did during his own career - he always shot well at 3+ attempts.. Otherwise, his efficiency reflects "bailout volume" (forced threes at end of shot-clock and therefore low, meaningless volume).. Again, Jordan always shot well at 3+ attempts, such as 39% on 4 attempts for the 93' title run, or 43% on 5 attempts in the 92' Finals, or 36.4% on threes in regular season games of 3+ attempts from 85-93', or 39% in series of 3+ attempts from regular line)
* Jordan's career was always going to be attached to 1 player/sidekick because he was always going to be unbeatable the instant he got a tad of help, such as a single all-star - that's just how good and dominant Jordan was.. But Pippen was actually a low producer that averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs, which included worst-ever shooting splits in 96' & 98', so Jordan won with the goat lane-clogger/bricklayer... Pippen's historic lane-clogging confirms that Lebron couldn't win with him, since LeDrive needs great spacing.. Ultimately, Pippen was nothing outside the system and Houston was astonished at how bad he was.
* Phil was a rookie coach in 1990, while MJ was the goat candidate, so MJ built Phil, not the other way around... Phil was wrong about everything by saying the triangle would "spread the wealth" and Jordan wouldn't be scoring champ anymore... However, Jordan was scoring champ for 7 of 7 seasons in the triangle, while his shot attempts, usage and scoring rate increased in the triangle compared to prior (90-93' vs 85-89')
For the record, over the 10,000-ish minutes from the 96-97 & 97-98 season the Bulls were slightly better when MJ was on the bench defensively across the regular season and the playoffs.
There's too much noise in a 22 game sample for you to isolate just one playoff run for on/off. In 98 MJ wass on the bench for just over 100 minutes. That's not enough time to get a real read on the sitation. I mean, was Michael Jordan 13.2pp 100 posessions different between the 97 and 98 playoffs? Obviously not.
And this is backed up from his time at the Wizards where the team was also better defensively when he was on the bench.
It just points to what knowledgable fans know. MJ was a media made giant on the defensive end. He has a lot of steals and blocks in the 80s because he gambled a lot and was super athletic. He then got a bunch of all defensive nominations even though he didn't impact the game that much.
MJ was a one dimensional player (scorer), that was average at all other aspects of the game.
For the record, over the 10,000-ish minutes from the 96-97 & 97-98 season the Bulls were slightly better when MJ was on the bench defensively across the regular season and the playoffs.There's too much noise in a 22 game sample for you to isolate just one playoff run for on/off. In 98 MJ wass on the bench for just over 100 minutes. That's not enough time to get a real read on t
I admire your drive to find something Jordan wasn't the best at. So we go from Jordan was a choker to now he was a liability on defense? C'mon bro. Respectfully, but give this propaganda up. Dude was good at basketball.
Jordaan won defensive player of the year and i think was 1st team all defense for his career. Dude was good at steals and pretty good at blocks as well.
Btw no disrespect to Lebron but isn't he known to take defense off for a huge portion of hs career to save energy for offense? Has it been a decade since last time he played defense? Sorry Lebron just gotta keep it real. Still a great career dude.
Stats don't lie. Ask FG.
His stats tell me that Larry Hughes > Pippen. Do you believe that?
Stats don't lie. Ask FG.
His stats tell me that Larry Hughes > Pippen. Do you believe that?
I actually don't remember as i wasn't watching that closely back then during the Larry Hughes years. I do remember Pippen missing alot of jumpers though. He was only good at driving to the hoop and defense.
The answer you are looking for is "No"
Wouldn't the fact he was a completly forgettable player vs a player that was a first ballet HoFer give you some idea which one was better?
Wouldn't the fact he was a completly forgettable player vs a player that was a first ballet HoFer give you some idea which one was better?
You would think that yes. But i won't say Pippen was better without actually knowing how Larry Hughes played. That would be unfair to Hughes. And let's not forget Pippen got to shine as Jordan was being triple teamed most possessions.
Well, you know, except those two years when MJ got suspended for gambling and Pippen finished Top 5 in the MVP.
After Jordan retired there was a mood like basketball isn't exciting and fun anymore. The legend was gone so people started having new hobbies. No offense to lebron but that was your era.
The splash brothers brought the nba back into mainstream. That's when i started watching closely again.
Steph Curry made people watch again just like Caitlin has made people watch again. Obviously Caitlin's emergence was much bigger for her league. I didn't watch one wnba game until Caittin entered the league.
You raise a good point about Jordan making the game exciting.
What happened is lots of people started playing it (particularly internationally).
As a direct result the NBA average player skill increased significantly to today's basketball.
Of course, Jordan played in a weak era where there weren't a lot of skills and very few international players.
Look at the NBA now. Lots of people that can shoot 3s. Because 10 years ago Steph happened.
