Israel/Palestine thread

Definitely they are a group of decentralized gangs, but without an ideological leader how long will they be able to last? And if Israel is truly serious about hostages for freedom, then they probably have to use some kind of third party intermediary. Violent people when cornered are very dangerous. If they act rashly and aren’t able to deliver on that promise they risk the rest of the hostages being killed in order to escape.

But maybe with the intelligence they have they do have a plan, obviously I’m not privy to any of that.

They will last until they are either violently overthrown by a stronger "gang" (unlikely) or until they agree to hand control over to another authority such as Fatah.

They will not willingly hand control over to Israel, and I doubt they would negotiate directly with Israel at this point; so it seems necessary a third party needs to come in that Hamas and the Palestinian people would accept handing control to.

Whether this is happening anytime soon I have no idea.

Originally Posted by campfirewest
If your side is reduced to throwing sticks at drones, it might be time to give up the hostages, take L, and move along with life.

--Obviously Sinwar is the last person one should feel sorry for for being in this position, but if you have seen any video of Ukraine-Russia there is a lot of this kind of stuff on both sides, and it pretty much always ends bad for the soldier (1 in 1,000 times the soldier gets lucky and disables the drone by shooting it or throwing something at it).

Short a technological jump that makes individual soldiers better able to neutralize drones, this kind of stuff seems to be a normal part of combat now.

And obviously Palestinians (and to an extent Muslims) are going to view Sinwar's actions facing death with veneration and pride. That is natural. Any people would react this way.

However, hopefully he is venerated like Mongolians venerate Ghenghis Khan, as a great historical figure of his time, and not someone whose actions or views anyone should ever try to emulate.

There's a fair bit of anti drone drones and other anti drone tech already available. It just isn't widespread yet.

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What is actually a bigger deal than killing Sinwar

Lebanon's civilian population suffers under Israeli military strikes

Israel has issued evacuation orders to 25% of Lebanon, UNICEF announced Wednesday.

"Approximately 1.2 million people -- men, women and children -- have been displaced by this escalating conflict -- including approximately 400,000 children," UNICEF Deputy Executive Director Ted Chaiban said at a UN media briefing.

The group claimed there will be no cease-fire in Lebanon as long as Israel’s operation in Gaza continues. Israel has said Hezbollah is controlled by Iran, and is ultimately responsible for the violence in Lebanon.

"Iran stood by our side, in contrast to America's support for Israel," Berro said in response to this idea. "We are forced to gather allies; if China or Russia are willing to assist us, we are ready."

The ideology is the leader. Leaving aside its basis and origin, it's seemingly without end. How long won't it last? This is one of the reasons why there isn't an obvious solution.

In an unusually blunt criticism of Iran, the Lebanese Prime Minister Najib Mikati expressed his surprise over a statement made by the speaker of the Iranian parliament over the future of southern Lebanon.

Iran's Speaker, Mohammad Baqer Qalibaf, has offered to negotiate with France over UN Resolution 1701, which ended the last major conflict between Israel and Hezbollah in 2006 and gave the United Nations a mandate to help the Lebanese army keep the peace.

Mikati described the Iranian statement as "blatant interference in Lebanese affairs and an attempt to establish an unacceptable guardianship over Lebanon".

Mikati says he has asked for the Iranian chargé d’affairs to be summoned to explain the statement - adding that any negotiations on Resolution 1701 should be undertaken by the Lebanese state.

i expect there plenty of lebanese who aren't thrilled at the prospect of their country becoming a permanent battleground in iran's war with israel, aren't at all motivated by the prospect of the extermination of the jews, and just want to live a normal life

should be more and more of this sort of stuff as hezbollah are weakened over time

Good that Iran wants to deescalate. PM is not wrong though.

Again the take is troubling at a very minimum.

In here the claim is that this is not a Jewish issue, but a Zionist issue.

I'm showing you the list of hate crimes and the conditions people face in CANADA just for being Jewish, and your take is "anyone die?"

Honestly, ponder that some more today. Ponder that globially it's a religion facing this scrutiny. Not an ideology. If you think men, women and children in North America with nothing to do with the conflict need an armed escort to go safely to pray, then you have some troubling issues to work out man.

There is spirit in these things. You need that, weapons, money, men. Once you start to fragment that enough, it essentially becomes ineffective. Nazism still exists. But the Nazis, do not. A study was published that I shared on the 4-5 very key things that must happen to make sure it doesn't survive. The first one was most certainly military defeat, and security provided by other military forces. But then that's followed by education, rebuilding, a viable political replacement from within, etc.

Things get real uncomfortable quick if you play the history of that country out from 1975 to today, and exactly what caused the collapse of that country. People my parents age remember what that country used to be. What it could still eventually be.

His take is bad but to your point, I think there’s a little more context. Israel and Israel supporters claim the existence of Israel is not only important for the safety of Israelis (obviously) but Jews everywhere. I’m pretty sure that claim has been made in this thread. The other day you claimed if Trolly were Jewish, his parents did a bad job of raising him because he’s not supportive of Israel. The Israeli government and Israeli supporters are constantly trying to make the case that Israel and Judaism at large are inseparable. If I were Jewish, I’d be pretty appalled by this, not only because of the actions of that state, but because it’s encouraging bigots to think of me as being an extension of Israel, simply for being Jewish. That doesn’t give anyone justification for antisemitism but it’s a conflation that is encouraged by more than one side.

That claim is not made. The reverse is true. Israel benefits from the diaspora.

if the diaspora wants Israel's safety, they must move there. Many do. But largely the Jews of the diaspora are out on an island, of sorts. And most of us are pretty happy that we can't be easily identified right now. It's ugly out there.

[QUOTE=Bubble_Balls;58755641 [B]The other day you claimed if Trolly were Jewish, his parents did a bad job of raising him because he’s not supportive of Israel.[/QUOTE]

That is also not what I said. I think a few people got it though. But you, did not. The mod definitely did get it.

This much IS true. But then the thread must recognize that railing against Israel IS railing against Jews. You don't get to have it one way. If half the queer population lived in one country in the world, you would not get a chance to split this up as "well only part of them". You now understand what I've been saying for 100 pages.

It's not just encouraging bigots. it's justifying antisemitism.

It's both wrong and an appalling mistake.

Lebanon had a lot of great things going for it under French and later American influence. Then from the 1980s through today Lebanon basically became a colonial project for Iran, and has suffered horrible from it. Like very other Iranian colonial project of the last 40 years.

The only good thing Iran could do for Lebanon at this point is leave completely; but I dont see that happening because of the large Shiite population that still seems to support Iranian influence. As I said before, a lot of this seems to be economic as opposed to ideological, as Iran destroyed the economy of Lebanon and gives Hezbollah money and weapons, so they are the only one with money and weapons in the country, and have de facto control.

So here we are.

This is so completely demented that anyone reading this on waking up from a long coma would think that Israel hasn't invaded Lebanon.

I guess that's how propaganda works.

You have a poor theory of mind for bigots (and really everyone else too). They already think this, have thought this since 1948 and will always think this.

Western progressives are pretty much the only people in the entire world who try to make a distinction between Israel, Zionism, and the Jewish people. This is like 5% of the world's population.

And the funny thing is that anyone arguing that Israel's actions are making the world less safe for Jews, and should modify their behavior because of this, are implicilty admitting they realize and accept that the vast majority of the world, especially the Muslim world, already makes no distinction between the state of Israel and the Jewish people. And they never did, which is why all the collective punishment pogroms of Jews in MENA happened after Israel was formed.

And again, this logic is applying an appealing but consistent double standard. No one is arguing the Muslim regimes doing horrible things in Pakistan, Turkey, Syria, Sudan, Yemen, Iraq, etc. should stop because it is making the world less safe for Muslims. Only the single Jewish majority nation in the world gets this treatment.

Now I am not saying you are wrong that Israel's current actions might be making the world less safe for Jews. But that is exactly because the majority of the world already think Jews are an extension of Israel, and are bigoted accordingly.

It took 2 seconds to find this:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/prominent-...

The mod admonished you for your comment and micro interpreted it the same way I did so unless you’re misunderstanding which comment I’m referring to you’re the one that’s mistaken.

I understand you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too.

Of course Israel invaded Lebanon. Hezbollah, acting as a colonial project of the IRI has been acting for IRI interests against Lebanese interests, and started attacking Israel 12+ months ago.

The only moral failing in this equation was the rest of the world siting by and letting this happen. IRI and Hezbollah should have been stopped on October 8, 2023 by the entire world.

I don’t know, I think I have you figured out pretty well.

I had a reply locked and loaded. But I recently started getting infractions every time I replied to posts like these, so I guess I will take the high road, although I admit it isn't my natural inclination to do so.

That thread was closed when these posts were made