Israel/Palestine thread

I don't know that that has to be plural.

oh it does

Good point.

Loose ends, from across threads.

Isreal's Shaz party did not get 13% of the vote. It got 8%.

The Shaz party, again, is the party that views non Jews as subhuman, created by God to serve Jews.

This is their founder. Not in 1954. In 2010.

The RZP party and Jewish Power party got 10.8% as you see. So that total is 19%. Wiki says both parties are Jewish Supremacists.

Jewish Power party

Note, the sources cited are also Jewish.

The head of the Jewish Power party is a convicted terrorist and convicted of inciting racial violence, by isreali courts. Netanyahu has placed him in his cabinet. In charge of law enforcement.

Another cabinet member, the minister of culture, has spoken in favor of nuking Palestinians, led a riot in favor of raping prisoners. He is a Rabbi.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amihai_Eliyahu

en

Amihai Eliyahu - Wikipedia

Here a Rabbi, who later became colonel explains why, unlike any other army, Israeli soldiers are allowed to rape gentile women all they like in times of war.

https://www.972mag.com/idf-colonel-rabbi-implies-rape-is-permitted-in-war/

+972 Magazine

IDF colonel-rabbi implies: Rape is permitted in war - +972 Magazine

The people ITT who share these views, or more moderate , versions can have another meltdown. But the above is well documented and easily verified.

There are a million examples. I was actually looking for a different Rabbi (employed by the state) who said their army can rape. But that one came up.

Imagine if the US was parliamentary and 19% of the seats were held by the actual KKK, and their leaders spoke openly of the inherent inferiority of non whites.

Imagine the head of the DOJ was a Nazi skinhead, convicted of terrorism.

Imagine Joel Osteen said it was OK for Christian soldiers to rape, and was in favor of lynching children.

Then, the US would be like Isreal. And according to many ITT that would be NBD.

This is why Bernie Sanders, a Jew, said Netanyahu is "beholden to extreme racists." Because he is.

When you factor in that some Israelis oppose the ethnic cleansing, something like 30% in favor are open, KKK style supremacists who genuinely view Arabs as subhuman. And we send the billions to kill.

That's why it's worth blowing up a whole hospital to get at some money, ammo or a tunnel. What other army has argued this? It is just taken for granted that the people in those hospitals are worthless.

They are massacring civilians because that is what people like this (Nazis, KKK,etc) do. It is their goal. It's not self defense.

And that's why millions of good hearted Jews around the world hate and oppose these people.

That’s the genetic fallacy by the way. Just because Margaret Sanger was a racist that doesn’t mean Planned Parenthood is racist.

I don't like any of that post. Not the pointing at the Jews who are *******s or the tokenizing of good Jews. Some Jewish people suck and some are great. That's the same for every group of people. Maybe your keeping score sucks.

Same ****ing thing if one of the right wingers in here posts some heinous **** some religious leader in a Muslim country says and then makes a token out of the son of a Hamas leader who loves the USA.

If the US were parliamentary that number might be about right. Perhaps a tad high.

There is nothing wrong with Jews, or South African whites, Germans or Japanese any more than other people.

In all cases, there was a time when a pernicious Ideology took root among much of the population of certain countries.

It has also happened in Muslim countries. Isis or AQ existing has nothing to do with the worth of Muslims or Arabs as human beings. But those Ideologies are not good.

it seems that far too much of Israeli society supports the bombings and invasions as is. it seems that far too much of American society does too.

Another good example. Iraq was a horrible crime, using similar language of "self defense." The people who orchestrated it at the top, knowing it was all BS are no better than other mass murderers. It's nauseating that most only got more wealth and power and shows that our country is in a bad place.

The American public deserve some blame for supporting it. Those who fought it deserve praise.

Says nothing about being born here making you inherently inferior or good. Just people. But we need to change these things, not support more of the same.

I'm not too big on blaming people for the actions of their leaders.

It's too easy to manipulate people.

Jewish supremacism and White supremacism are not the same thing because you can convert to Judaism but can't convert to being White. The same guy you're talking about as if he is an ethnic Jewish supremacist also was instrumental in advocating for Ehtiopian Jews to have Aliyah (basically diaspora Jews immigrating to Israel).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah_fro...

Also noteworthy that those statements were made towards the very end of his life and that overall he supported peace talks between Israel and Palestine for a lasting peace, something that he never changed his mind on.

His party is definitely more towards the right now but it's really bad to cherrypick a guy's worst comments and claim that the political party he founded should be judged exclusively on those comments. Maybe they are really bad now but not for the reasons that you state.

What do you think when Dunyan or Luciom or rafiki or whoever starts posting polls of the attitudes of Arabs and abhorrent quotes and suggesting that so many of them are prejudiced? Do you think they're being Islamophobic?

You can't convert to not being Jewish though - at least not if you're not a convert in the first place.

It's complicated and I think many non-Jews, even if they've been following in this thread for a long time, still don't get it.

Like you pointed out about the Rabbi and the Ethiopians is they are more about the religion than the ethnicity and if you really convert Orthodox, you're a Jew and not a Gentile. To other people, including a lot of Jews and most anti-semites, it's more about the ethnicity than religion. In the Inquisition you could convert and not get killed or expelled, but in the Holocaust you couldn't.

If those polls are accurate, I don't think it's Islamaphobic in itself. We should know what motivates the violence. The radicals on both sides feed off each other.

I see this difference. They are using those polls (I assume) to argue that it's OK or good for Isreal to bomb hospitals and kill 10s of thousands.

I am not arguing in favor of violence against Isrealis. Oct 7 was terrible. If my government was sending billions to Hamas to fund additional attacks, I would be horrified and impotently rage against it.

In both cases, we need to understand why so many feel it is permissible to kill and brutalized civilians.

I think we almost all take it for granted that Islamismism is a pernicious Ideology. But if someone wants to argue that it is OK to blow up an Isreali hospital because some ammo was stored there, I'll argue that this is not their real motivation.

The existence of the Jewish Power party etc. In no way justifies slaughtering civilians, but I think those guys you mentioned were saying similar views among Arabs justify killing them.

At this point if you dont accept that antisemitism is rampant in the Arab world than you just aren't a good faith actor IMO. The real question for serious people is whether Israel/Jews could and should be behaving better, and how much would this help improve this situation.

I agree. I view all these things, like addiction, crime, racism etc as social ills to be treated. They have root causes (even Nazism) and most of us could probably be brainwashed.

Not many people wake up one morning and just decide they'd like to be the bad guy.

I would like to see leaders held accountable, but there's not really any point in pointing the finger at Joe Schmoe.

But we do have to recognize the problem to treat it.

ES2 will be taking a day off from the thread for a multitude of violations, including offensive analogies to Nazis and the Holocaust, which I have repeatedly asked the thread to avoid, and also for his extremely careless posting that conflated Israelis with all Jews in such a way as to be considered antisemitic. If you're not sure where the line is, I believe Micro gave a fairly decent example by asking if you would consider the reverse to be acceptable posting.

Please do not negatively characterize entire populations or groups.

Thank you

First off, Israel and the Palestinians are in the middle of a pretty bad war, so emotions are high; so for attitudes on bth sides I think we need to keep some perspective that people are going to be more radical in the middle of a war than in peacetime.

That being said, I think you way way way overestimate how "supremacist" Israelis generally are. And you completely caricature their society and government. It isn't perfect, but it is much more cosmopolitan, diverse and equitable than pretty much every other nation in this part of the world.

Im not going to judge if an oppressed group is "prejudiced" against the group that dominates exploits and murders them.

I dont think the perspectives of non-Palestinian Arabs and Muslims is really pertinent.

For my part, I accept that Palestinian Territories are controlled by violent authoritarian gangs that tightly control speech, so I have probably put too much weight into reported Palestinian attitudes about Israel, Jews and peace.

Again, obviously we are in the middle of a war so tensions are high, but It is quite possible that generally Palestinian attitudes were not being represented accurately in their published polls.

However, I see this as a reason why the world should be trying to move towards a future where Palestinian society isn't dominated by violent authoritarian gangs. And it seems the rest of the world wants the gangs to stay in control for perpetuity.

the violent authoritarian gang is the occupation.

Correct, which is why I said that you can convert to being Jewish not that you can stop being ethnically Jewish. My point was that in trying to understand certain hardline Israelis, you have to understand that the country itself has a moderate view of what a Jew is. You can qualify either through bloodline or credible conversion. And the person that he was pointing as a Jewish supremacist was a pluralist when it came to supporting different Jewish ethnic groups. Also in many ways he was considered a rival to Ashkenazi Jews as well, and in some cases opposed conscription.

I think he had some really bad moments but overall he wasn’t some warmonger, in fact he often argued throughout his career for trading land for peace, including a notable justification for giving land to Egypt in exchange for peace,

wait do you guys think the Palestinians being killed right now never mixed with the indigenous Jews over the last few thousand years?

I think this post is quite instructive to once again show that certain elements of the far left are openly in favor of “no bad tactics, only bad targets”. The problem is that who is considered an oppressor is subjective. There are 5.8 million Israeli-Jews in the Middle East and 345 million muslims. The Jews in Israel coexist with Arab-Israelis (christians and muslims) as de jure equals (we can dispute de facto but on paper they are equal). Furthermore the death toll in the Israel-Gaza war doesn’t compare to the death tolls in other wars in the region, from civil wars to regional wars. In many ways, the treatment of Palestinians even considering the occupation is better than the treatment of Kurds or Armenians in the past by Turkey.

All that to say that if we are going to take this approach, many Israelis would argue they are the ones justified in their prejudice and it is the Muslims that should be forced to drop their prejudice before they consider dropping it. I’m not someone with such a cynical view on human nature, but if we take your approach then there will be much more violence in the future, which I hope is not the case.