Israel/Palestine thread

Muslim is not an ethnicity so I’m sure many Jews were either forcibly converted or voluntarily converted or were killed if they did not submit. They also allow for Dimi status so long as they acknowledged their second class citizen status.

the idea that micro presented was that you simply cant stop being Jewish. but historically in this part of the world at least that seems outlandish given the many cultures and religions that have inhabited it. maybe going forward you cant. but again, I find it hard to believe that over the thousands of years a large amount of the Palestinians didnt have ancestors who were Jewish. its probably a math problem. maybe Sklansky could solve it.

Sigh. You don't understand how it works imo..

I am luckboxing to an extent that this is all a sort of social construct and not really real. and also doing the whole Kumbaya we are all one thing and all people are people.

but in this thread at least, its the Palestinians who are not able to change their identity and who are forced to endure oppression and murder due to that identity and circumstance.

I feel like we’re being a little obtuse here. He was referring to modern prejudice towards Jews. He even caveated that in the Inquisition you could convert but not during the Holocaust. But sure I guess if all Israelis converted to Islam then there would be no more conflict, is that your point?

no that is not my point. if all the Israelis converted to Islam then there would still be conflict! its not the religion its the ****ing occupation. the apartheid. the murder. the genocide. its very easy to conceive of one Islamic group dominating another.

I am kind of grunching this conversation so I am not sure the point Victor is getting at, but the Muslim Palestinian population has genetics indicating they are partly (but not wholly) the descendants of ancient Israelites who converted to Islam over the 2000 year period after the Romans conquered the Israelites.

Interestingly, Sharia law has strict rules about Muslims inter-marrying; so once a population converts to Islam it generally stopped inter-marrying with non Muslim groups. But there is lots of cross ethnic/cultural inter-marrying within the Muslim world. Genetics indicates this general trend across the entire ME.

This is why Christian and Druze Levantines generally are more genetically tied to the Levant than Muslim populations, which had lots of genetics from Egypt, Arabia, Iran, Turkey, etc.

ya kinda my point. but like my point, or at least my theory, which is admittedly totally made up and has nothing to do with Sharia or Jews or Muslims or Romans or whatever. its just that people be ****ing. and they **** a lot over thousands of years.

Of course. There is a tremendous amount of occupation, apartheid, murder and genocide within the Muslim world; and there has been for 1500 years. Most of which you are willfully ignorant of. The is confusing to you because you are intentionally ignorant of anything in the world going on which doesn't confirm to your ideology.

But the truth is both Muslims and westerners care much less about bad things going on "in-house" in the Muslim world than what they perceive as Western imposition on the Muslim world. And layered on top of this is the Western world navigating its relationship with Jews post Holocaust.

So there is extreme outsized attention on this conflict, and relative indifference to conflicts in Sudan, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Turkey, Aizerbaijan, etc.

And I dont think all the outsized attention from the rest of the world has been doing the Palestinians any favors over the last 80 years. IMO without it things would have resolved a long time ago and everyone would be much better off for it.

By the rules the Orthodox Jews use, surely some Palestinians are actually Jews and lots of people who think they are Jews actually aren't. The reason it would only be a small number of Palestinians who would be Jews is that it would require an unbroken chain of mothers (mother, mother's mother, etc) being Jewish to make them a Jew. You can convert to being a Jew or you are a Jew if your mother is a Jew. Simple as that for the Orthodox.

For just the Jewish 'ethnicity' if you are culturally/ethnically Jewish, then you can be half Jewish or part Jewish, just like you can be half-Asian. But of course these are all, what they call constructs, and aren't even the same from culture to culture. (like, you can't really be half Hispanic in the USA or maybe you can, I'm dunno)

I am not ignorant of it. I just said it.

Im not indifferent to most of those conflicts. I speak on things I am somewhat confident about. Syria Iraq and Yemen were most certainly not "in-house". Yemen was blockaded by US and UK and bombed with USA bombs. Syria was Western funded and armed external proxies like ISIL attacking a sovereign country. Iraq? I mean cmon, if the archives from 2003 were still around then I would get permabanned for the things I said to the war cheerleaders.

I mean, that would be kinda too crazy to imagine what it would do.

But

[quote=Victor]its the Palestinians who are not able to change their identity and who are forced to endure oppression and murder due to that identity and circumstance.[/quote]

I don't think that's true. I think any Palestinian who went through Orthodox Jewish conversion would be guaranteed citizenship in Israel. It must have happened....yeah, here's an example:

https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/...

A whole section of our family considers themselves to be Mormon because a few generations back someone converted, but they come from an unbroken matrilineal line so even though they do not practice Judaism at all and don't consider themselves to be Jewish, they're still Jews technically. And we still love them :p

It's an odd logic

Jewish people apparantly believe you're jewish if your mother is jewish but if you're not jewish there's no reason to believe that so you can be not jewish even if your mother was

Generally not a fan of imposing identity on others. Yeah i know hitler did but he was nuts.

and heres another example that doesnt fit your preconceptions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_David_Ben_Avraham

en

Killing of David Ben Avraham - Wikipedia

but my post was not talking about converting to Judaism. my post was saying that if Palestinians wanted to renounce their [sic] Palestinianism and survive Gaza, then that option is not allowed. even if right at this moment they had money and international contacts. they are condemned precisely for where they were born. and there is nothing they can do about it right now.

I think we can generally say orthodox anything (including but certainly not limited to Jews) probably has some antiquated, and probably not great, ideas that non orthodox dont adhere to. And that non adherence is a good thing.

just out of curiosity, why do you care so much about the Palestinian occupation, but not about the Syrian Civil War, the Kurdish fight to have a state, or any other number of conflicts that involve state people within the Middle East? Also, why are you so much on the side of the Russians when it comes to the Ukraine Russia war which would seemingly also involve a brutal occupation? I’m not saying you are not principal and your stance against occupation, but perhaps there is a bit of unconscious bias going on for whatever reason. I actually don’t think it’s anti-Jewish, I think it’s anti-western bias.

I mean, beliefs are all relative in a way. I descend from a direct unbroken female line to mitochondrial Eve. That could be a religion unto itself, or just a meaningless fact. It just depends what value do you assign to various concepts.

The constraints on Palestinians are a function of how the UN classifies them, which their leadership has supported. The Palestinian leadership has never challenged the unique rules and constraints concerning their status as refugees with very limited options to emigrate anywhere else, and polls indicate the people themselves approve of their constraints.

They generally think IF they were allowed to travel/emigrate then too many people would, and it would weaken the cause. So effectively Palestinian leadership, and the people themselves, have set up a "sacrifice yourself for the cause" situation.

bro, the UN is not keeping Palestinians in Gaza right now. thats the IDF.

Right and most Jews are not Orthodox. The state of Israel though uses some of these ancient religious rules as a basis for their "modern" law.

This is uncontroversially correct. The last things I'm seeing on the internet is that it's extremely difficult to leave, very dangerous and costs up to $20k. If some non-involved country decided to send a ship to Gaza and take war refugees, it would be the Israeli military that would stop them, not the UN or Hamas.

From what I saw if you don’t have proof of lineage you can also submit to a DNA test.

As you and Victor have pointed out, it seems the original Zionists had ambitions to turn Judaism from a religion into a ethnonational identity, with Israel as its center, and passed laws to support this vision.

And for good or bad they were in large part (but not completely) successful. And whether you think this was a good idea or not, it happened and Israel exists and that is the world we all live in.

They are in the middle of a war. I think we can all grasp that wars create temporary abnormal conditions. The US didn't permanently cease becoming a liberal democracy because WWII happened and the executive took on war powers.

Yes, in the middle of this war Israel is being extremely restrictive of Palestinian movement; much more than their baseline self imposed restrictions.

That being said, for the last 80 years the UN and the Palestinian people themselves could have worked to change the refugee designation to make emigration and naturalization to other places easier. But they specifically resisted doing this, explicitly saying they didn't want to weaken the "right of return" cause.