Israel/Palestine thread

Maybe you are indifferent towards the big 3 monotheistic religions; but you should also accept that for almost half the world Jerusalem is important for religious reasons. And hand waiving away this reality because it is not convenient towards your worldview doesn't accomplish anything.

For good or bad, early Islamists built what they consider a Holy mosque right on top of the holiest site of the Jewish religion, that also has significant religious significance in Christianity, and told Jews they weren't allowed to pray there. And for 1,000 years this wasn't a problem because of differential power dynamics Jews were the only one majorly inconvenienced by this arrangement, and no one gives a **** about Jews for pretty much this entire time. But now that power dynamics have changed, suddenly it is a giant theological problem that Jews are allowed to control and pray in their holiest site.

And leftists like yourself understand at some level how deeply hypocritical this is, so they just pretend the religious dynamic doesn't exist at all.

At least Islamists for their part dont engage in such hypocrisy. They just declare that Muslims should be in complete control of the 3rd most holy site of their religion, and are completely indifferent to the reality it has been the most important site of Judaism from long before Islam was even a thing.

And they simply dont care about the deep hypocrisy that Muslims in control of Jerusalem for 1000 years didn't let jews pray there, as opposed to Israel who does let Muslims pray at Aqsa.

Not sure what mets believes and it doesn't matter. Israel gov clearly believes they are entitled to some or all of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt.

It was supposed to be a separate neutral entity

Talking about what is in the "west bank" is arbitrary. It just means on YNt west side of the Jordan (the east coast) and Jerusalem is more central

But that's not really relevant

Israel has annexedall of Jerusalem and offered citizenship to anyone who was living there. Many declined, but they have permanent resident status. It's not the same situation as the west bank at all, where the Palestinians are neither citizens or permanent residents of Israel

Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Since 1967 both east and west Jerusalem have been part of Israel. If there is a 2 state solution, an undivided Jerusalem will still be the Capital of Israel

1967 borders means the Egypt runs Gaza. I would love that

Israel tried to give Gaza back to Egypt in 1978 but they requested the barren sinai desert instead

Going to 1967 when Palestinians didn't have a government or a state is such a silly ask

The West bank in 1967 was part of Jordan.

There was no Palestine in 1967

Vic

Israel has had peace with Jordan and Egypt for decades and have only given up land near those areas since then so no idea what you mean

Syria/Golan is at least a valid discussion

But by mentioning Egypt and Jordan, you show you have no idea about the history of this conflict at all, which I've proved in this thread umpteen times

And the govts of all those places clearly felt they were entitled to all of Israel, until Israel used superior economic and military force to disabuse them of that notion.

From 1948-1967, Jordan controlled the holy city, and neither Jews nor Christians were allowed to pray there

When Israel took over, rather than stop muslims from praying, they let Jordan continue to have ""control" over the Muslim sites in Jerusalem

Why do the gods of any of those religions care about from where people pray

Just nonsense

no I am well aware of the history. I also understand the mentality of expansion and colonialism.

Syria is not a "valid discussion". its simply proof. they are in the process of ethnicly cleansing large parts of it.

and likewise so is Lebanon proof. they just tried to steal a bunch of land in Lebanon but the brave boys and girls of Hezbollah held them off. they will certainly try again soon.

but heres the thing, I just listen to Israelis to understand their sentiments. this women has visited Gaza a bunch of times to scout out settlements. and here she is over year ago telling you exactly what Israel stands for.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

The New Yorker

The Extreme Ambitions of West Bank Settlers

https://www.timesofisrael.com/troops-smu...

The Armistice agreement that all the countries in the region signed in 1949 allowed for expansion ism for all countries involved

But that still doesn't explain how you said Israel is still expanding into Jordan and Egypt when that is patently false

And if they annexed the neutral zone of Syria, the druze that live there would become Israeli citizens like other druze communities in the Golan heights. That's because the druze don't want Israel destroyed

Criticizing people for their religious beliefs looks pretty ugly

Just sayin

The druze in particular have lots of customs that westerners might consider "ridiculous " so what. They've been practicing for over 1000 years

you should quote where I said this. I said they feel entitled to the land and will, sooner or later, go after it.

you are switching up verb tenses and meanings to make it seem like I said they are actively doing it right now. its bad faith.

its not a neutral zone, its literal and legitimate Syrian territory.

what about the non-Druze?

how do you know the Druze want to be Israeli? do all of the Druze want to be Israeli?

wtf does destroying Israel have to do with some Syrian city being stolen by Israel? if they turn down citizenship does that mean they want Israel destroyed? Im baffled by that last sentence.

Syria is a colonial project that has never worked. Why do British colonizers that have been dead for decades get to decide whose territory is whose. Maybe the indigenous people should have some say. Don't you think?

I mean, it would be one thing if Syria actually worked. There are plenty of colonial projects that ended up working more or less, so there is at least a utility argument for why they should exist. But Syria doesn't even have this.

I dont think the indigenous people of Syria want Israel there, nor do the indigenous people in the euphemistically named buffer zone.

but Syria did work. they were a stable and sustainable country in 2010 with little foreign debt and greatly self sufficient. they failed bc the Western powers spent over a trillion dollars on a regime change plan that took ~15 years. few countries can withstand that.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2...

Killing people for religious beliefs is way uglier

fake news ofc

heres a pro-Israel source

Why would any god care enough where you pray to him that he would justify killing people for that right?

Maybe that’s too introspective a question.

The answer btw is either that god is a bad god OR people are killing other people for a bad belief

It's happened for millenia

In just about every religion

That's why the Abraham Accords are so unique

Israel just blew up a major Russian naval base/weapons depot on the coast of Syria. The size of the explosions indicates a tremendous amount of munitions being destroyed. Getting past the Level 0 anti-Israel moral outrage, it is pretty much impossible to imagine Israel would do this without Russia's knowledge, if not its blessing. And there is no world Israel would do this if there were Russian soldiers still operating at the base.

So this action seems to indicate that Russia has given up its military interests in Syria, perhaps as the beginning of some sort of deal that will ultimately include Ukraine.

damn bro, have you been listening to Laith Marouf?

Millennia of bad gods or bad beliefs or both?