Israel/Palestine thread

Why would anyone worship a god who says you have to kill people in order to worship from a specific place on earth?

Bad gods or bad beliefs?

If god told you to do it, that’s a bad god. If you’re doing it without gods explicit commandment, you hold a bad belief. It’s really very clear. I understand logic is the enemy of religion though.

So do you worship a bad god or are you executing a bad belief a good god didn’t command? It’s a question worth asking for the religious among us.

Be careful there, or god might hit you with the old lightning perma ban.

Only 75% of Israelis are Jewish and among them 50% identify as secular or non-religious. It’s mostly the Arabs who consider it a holy war as far as I can tell, for Israelis its a war for survival. The Orthodox Jews don’t even fight in the IDF.

The premise that only one religion represents the infallible and irrefutable word of God is preposterous to someone like me. But, that is not the point.

In this country if a Native American burial place is found under a construction project, work is stopped so a proper solution can be found. Not because the Native American religion is uniquely special. It is out of respect. You can't simply say that "who cares about old bones buried deep under some dirt". You can't tell decedents that they could remember their ancestors just the same from any other spot, so what's so special about this one? Why? Because much of human society is based on continuity with the past. It is why we care so deeply to have children, and why we care so deeply about our ancestors. It helps us live a life that has meaning beyond just our own isolated existence.

Jerusalem is the focal point in history for numerous immensely important events. This is true regardless of what your particular beliefs are. If peace in Jerusalem can be achieved between Judaism, Christianity and Islam, then something wonderful will have happened.

Jerusalem under the rule of Hamas would be a stain on all of humanity. When Hamas has been destroyed, and peace in Israel can be assured, then Jerusalem will be a place for all.

People have no problem saying the Palestinian people deserve a homeland, but when you say the Jewish people do it becomes controversial

I think this is the wrong thread for this crossnerd and we've argued about it in the past

The Jews are not just a religion. They are a people

Also, there is evidence jews worshipped there 2500 years ago and we're driven away and many have died trying to stay throughout 2500 years. And that means something to people

As Doyle pointed out, more israelis are secular than religious. And many were against bibi pre war and will likely be post war

But they are mostly united on wanting to rid Gaza of Hamas and get the hostages back and ensure October 7 will never happen again and that's what the war is about

The fact that Israel encourages all religions, allows Jordan to administer the holy Muslim sites in Jerusalem. There are over 400 mosques in Israel

Many non religious Jews make aliyah. Many non religious Jews have a special bond with Israel

And Israel having Arab cultures and cities such as Jaffa is part of its charm

“2500 years ago”. I mean, this is also nonsense.

The dead sea scrolls have been carbon dated 300 bce so that was 2300 years ago and probably not the beginning of the practice

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_d...

Not sure why you would call scientific evidence nonsense

It shouldn't. This blood and soil nonsense is highly toxic and it's a core value of far right extremists in every country. Maybe give some thought to who you're sharing your values with?

That's the only justification "palestinians" have to ask for a state for themselved there though.

Fact is you can either disregard past history, then the land is properly Israel as they took it and that's what makes it proper , or you can care about history, then the jews have a stronger claim on that land than arabs.

There is no model of the world in which the people who call themselves "palestinian" (a made up group that never existed historically) have a stronger claim on that land that the jews.

There are plenty of arab majority ethnostates in the areas, people who consider themselves "palestinians" can go in any of them and have a country where their values, religion and ethnicity are represented in full.

Why do they keep using the blood and soil nonsense which is highly toxic and far right extremism, to ask for a country in gaza or the west bank? and why do leftists support their highly toxic blood and soil claims?

More nonsense.

They have the claim of actually being born there. That trumps any nonsense said by either side about events from thousands of years ago.

lol love when Lucium trolls the Israel supporters

ironically, the west Bank is what was "Israel" 2000 years ago and modern Israel is Judah

none of this is why I think Israel has a right to exist at this point in history, but when people bring up who that the Palestenians are native therefore it is theirs, I do

Lets say hypothetically there was a specific religion whose religious leaders routinely advocate for killing in the name of God. In you opinion should we be critical of said religion and religious leaders to point out the problems with their belief structure and incompatibility with building a tolerant, multicultural world?

.

This is rather sweeping. Let's say the specific religion's majority of practitioners practiced it peacefully and not all of its religious leaders advocated killing in the name of God and indeed, condemned those who did. You'd be perfectly validated criticising the specific leaders who advocated such things. Not so much the specific religion though, as again, too sweeping and generalised.

Governments are killing. It's still hard to blame the religion

Yes there are Islamic jihadists killing in the name of Allah. That doesn't mean Islam is inherently bad

Or if you hate netenyahu and what he stands for. It doesn't mean you should block all Jews from going into the library at Columbia University

If governments are killing so people can pray at a specific spot, that’s a bad government.

Bc again, god isn’t real. People are. So killing people so you can pray to the empty ether from a specific latitude and longitude is pretty bad all around.

And if god is real and he’s telling you to kill people so you can pray to him from a specific coordinate on earth, you may want to reconsider why you’re worshipping such a ****ed up god

at which % of respondents in a country agreeing with killing people of different faiths (or with 10 7 ) do you stop being "too sweeping and generalizing"?

A lot of people self-define as palestinian without being born there . Actually a majority of the total population considered "palestinian" by UNRWA worldwide isn't born in gaza or the west bank.

Besides, if that's what make the claim legitimate, then settlements are legitimate because Israeli are born there every day?

again you are entitlted to your opinion, but the majority of the current israel/palestenian war is not about Jerusalem. More Muslims pray in Jerusalem on Fridays than Jews do on Saturdays. Jerusalem is working fine for all the major religions at the moment

Hamas demanding that Jerusalem be part of a Palestenian state is an issue that is preventing a deal is what Dunyan was saying.

But this current war isn't about religion for the most partl.

Just like Holocaust was not about religion (because Hitler didn't care whether you were a practicing Jew or not).

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The Palestenian people have been pawns in this game for two long. We all agree on that front.

If Joran, Egypt, UAE, and Saudi (unofficially) can all recognize Israel as a nation, have normalized relations with them, and not expect to some day destroy them in the name of Allah, and Israel can recognize and not want to destroy those nations -- that proves peace is possible and that is NOT about religion

forget hamas for the moment

THe Palestenian Authority has also stated many times there can be no peace without a 2 state solution based on 1967 borders and east jerusalem as their capital. THat was the PLO official position for 50 years? At some point, the Palestenians should take what they can get

IF, and thats a huge if, ISrael actual withdraws all the settlements in the west bank except for the ones directly bordering Jersalem (and that is a Big if), i think that is a deal the Palestenians should accept the deal even withiout Jerusalem as its capital
Ramallah can serve as the capital of Palestine, and eventually control of the Muslim sites in the Old City can be transferred from Jordan to Palestine. That being said, Jerusalem will still be part of Israel, And all people who accepted Citizenship when it was annexed will continue to be Israeli Citizens

discussing whether God is real or not in this thread is counterproductive and mostly irrelevant

there are many religious people whio do not believe in the God of the Bible, but their religion is still very important to them

well now ill say one more thing Cross

According to the Torah, Jews are supposed to pray at the Holy Temple. It has not been rebuilt because the Dome of the Rock is on the Temple Mount now. Israel has no intention of destroying the Dome of the Rock (well maybe some phanaticals do but the government does not).

THat is because Israel respects other religions, and it was not the Muslims who destroyed the Temple (they did not exist)

Israel is not killing anyone over religion. THey are not trying to take away anyone's religious freedom. And is defending its right to exist as a Jewish State