Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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33442 Replies
When the right to pray or access a religious site is a point of contention so strong that it prevents a ceasefire or permanent peace, then there is a problem. And it’s a problem both sides seem to have. It’s extremely selfish and stupid to let people continue to die for some of these religious sticking points.
All we hear is blablabla we will never give up Jerusalem bc 2500 years and God this and the Temple annd the Dome and blaaaghhhh vomit. Enough already. People are dying. Religious nut jobs o
Yep, it's this. Organized religion is the deadly undercurrent running through all of these geopolitical issues in the area. Many/most people of my political leanings disagree and say it's only about imperialism and resource conquest. While those things certainly play a big role, you can't ignore the gaping, chronic wound that arises from the various ways in which people in the area all worship (the same!) sky-fairy.
How would you define someone that when polled with the question "do you agree with Hamas actions" after 10 7 , responds affirmately (agreeing somewhat or more)?
extremist or non extremist?
I don't care about what people say in polls. I care about what people
do, and in this specific context whether they commit crimes in the name of their religion. Again non extremists of religion outweigh extremists by far.
Yep, it's this. Organized religion is the deadly undercurrent running through all of these geopolitical issues in the area. Many/most people of my political leanings disagree and say it's only about imperialism and resource conquest. While those things certainly play a big role, you can't ignore the gaping, chronic wound that arises from the various ways in which people in the area all worship (the same!) sky-fairy.
Yes. When all the leaders of both sides are deeply religious conservatives, we end up with never ending pointless conflicts like this one.
And also, I don’t think it would poll the way you claim if we were to ask 1000 random Israelis right now if they would give up their right to pray at the Temple if it meant all deaths would stop immediately.
The war isn’t solely about religion, but religion is a huge factor to every single faction involved.
Otherwise you wouldn’t constantly be claiming it’s antisemitism. You can’t pick and choose your facts.
im claiming antisemetism because jews are being harrassed at college campuses without even giving their opinion of Israel
Jews bought land through the Mandate between 1918-1947; with imperialism, nobody is buying land
the expansion that occured througout defensive wars you can argue as imperialism, but i argue it has been necesary for survival. If Israel did not take the Golan for example. they would have been destroyed from the North years ago
I can’t with this nonsense. I genuinely can’t.
Ah, yes, that classically powerful Palestinian lobby. In the US, AIPAC ALONE is more powerful than all Palestinian advocacy groups combined. In before you call the center-left of the Democratic Party part of an organized pro-Palestine lobby or something equally dumb.
If I remember right, you've said in the past that the milquetoast, centrist, imperialist, corporate Democratic Party engaged in Marxist practice or had Marxist roots or some such silly thing. My apologies if I'm getting that mix
The world is a very large, interconnected place. And your myopic focus on narrow aspects of US foreign policy and how Jewish money influences US foreign policy decision making causes you to have a very distorted view of reality IMO.
In reality, the Qatar/Turkey/Muslim Brotherhood axis throws around a lot more money, and exerts a lot more geopolitical pressure than Israel/AIPAC, and acknowledging this is an important first step towards understanding a lot of the geopolitical realities of the region, on top of what is shaping your own understanding of the world.
Or you can just myopically obsess on AIPAC and Jewish money, and completely miss the forest by staring at one tree. Whatever floats your boat.
No, we will never agree.
But I’m glad to see you referencing secular Jews now. I guess we’re not so fake when it suits you.
this is why you shouldn t be a ****ing mod
you bring up things from 10 years ago out of context. i never said they were not Jews. Im the one who has argued Jews are a race, a people. you say no no they are a religion that shares the gene pool but not a people
i just edited this post before hitting send to avoid a permaban but i get that yuo hate my guts and have to act like a superior being in any conversation but this isnt worth it to me so i guess im done engaging with you
you win
im claiming antisemetism because jews are being harrassed at college campuses without even giving their opinion of Israel
Jews bought land through the Mandate between 1918-1947; with imperialism, nobody is buying land
the expansion that occured througout defensive wars you can argue as imperialism, but i argue it has been necesary for survival. If Israel did not take the Golan for example. they would have been destroyed from the North years ago
I've calmly (by my standards) responded to like 5 different posts from MAFF with zero response. This shook neocon clearly has me on ignore :p
What a baby!
Dude you said it in this thread only months ago
Debate like an adult and discuss the words people post here
The world is a very large, interconnected place. And your myopic focus on narrow aspects of US foreign policy and how Jewish money influences US foreign policy decision making causes you to have a very distorted view of reality IMO.
In reality, the Qatar/Turkey/Muslim Brotherhood axis throws around a lot more money, and exerts a lot more geopolitical pressure than Israel/AIPAC, and acknowledging this is an important first step towards understanding a lot of the geopolitical realities of the r
truth
The research revealed that from 2001 to 2021, US higher education institutions received US$13 billion in funding from foreign sources, with Qatar contributing donations totaling $4.7 billion to universities in the United States.
so basically, 40% of all foreign funding on us Universities came from Qatar
Alright, let’s pull it all back friends. I think we’re all getting a bit rustled.
The world is a very large, interconnected place. And your myopic focus on narrow aspects of US foreign policy and how Jewish money influences US foreign policy decision making causes you to have a very distorted view of reality IMO.
In reality, the Qatar/Turkey/Muslim Brotherhood axis throws around a lot more money, and exerts a lot more geopolitical pressure than Israel/AIPAC, and acknowledging this is an important first step towards understanding a lot of the geopolitical realities of the r
JEWISH MONEY. THE MONEY. IT IS JEWISH.
Don't strawman me. It's Israeli (and Israeli-American) money. This is a very important difference. Do you see why?
"Throwing around money" is different than the SOLE, OVERT, and DIRECT mission of AIPAC and related lobbying groups. And yeah, I'm very sorry on focusing on the US, I do admit I need to spend more energy worrying about the massive influence that states such as Sweden, Canada, Kenya, et.al hold over Middle East geopolitics. All countries have a similar influence on these things. Good call.
truth
The research revealed that from 2001 to 2021, US higher education institutions received US$13 billion in funding from foreign sources, with Qatar contributing donations totaling $4.7 billion to universities in the United States.
so basically, 40% of all foreign funding on us Universities came from Qatar
And this is only US universities. Qatar/Turkey aggressively lobby around the world, and these efforts in truth explain a lot why why the world is so obsessed with Israel/Palestine and so indifferent towards other "persecuted" minority groups in the region.
I would be remiss to point out the US has large military bases in Qatar and Turkey, on top of nuclear warheads pointed at Russia in Turkey. So it is not like the US should be viewed as a victim of Qatar generated propaganda. It is very much a 2 way street.
At the highest levels it is viewed as an advantageous situation; and having to deal with the fallout from Qatar/Turkey's anti Israel/Western propaganda throughout the world is just seen as an (acceptable) cost of doing business.
I don't care about what people say in polls. I care about what people
do, and in this specific context whether they commit crimes in the name of their religion. Again non extremists of religion outweigh extremists by far.
Ok but if someone commits heinous crimes how can you judge the whole population about that if "polls don't matter".
I mean is your claim truly that until they personally assassinate someone they aren't a threat, even if they explicitly tell you they do agree with the assassinations?
What is more dangerous long term for everyone, one assassin, or tens of millions cheering the assassination?
No, we will never agree.
But I’m glad to see you referencing secular Jews now. I guess we’re not so fake when it suits you.
There’s a big distinction between secular Jews and members of groups like “Jewish Voice for Peace”. No one has ever called secular Jews fake just because they are less religious.
Thread was already in shambles, but this is a pretty pointless derail.
Religion has nothing do to with this war. The war is about land and nations, not religion. Nothing I said says it is about religion
I will remind you then of the things you have previously said:
Access to religious sites for both jews and Christians is a big part of the issue (such as bethlehem)
Is not just land
Hamas last counter proposal wants jews to not be able to pray at the wailing wall any longer because the "temple mount is a holy muslim site"
You have repeatedly said in this thread that the final sticking point will be Jerusalem and this is based upon religious reasons, like access to holy sites and places to pray.
It is my opinion that any religion, government, or people willing to kill other people for those reasons really need to ask themselves whether their god is bad or just they are. And that is 100% an indictment of both sides.
I will remind you then of the things you have previously said:
You have repeatedly said in this thread that the final sticking point will be Jerusalem and this is based upon religious reasons, like access to holy sites and places to pray.
It is my opinion that any religion, government, or people willing to kill other people for those reasons really need to ask themselves whether their god is bad or just they are. And that is 100% an indictment of both sides.
Jerusalem is important to some because of religious reasons, and to others because it’s the capital of the country they were born in and grew up in. Idk why this is hard to understand but it’s not that profound or relevant. You can easily discuss the conflict without resorting to religious rhetoric. A lot of Israelis don’t even believe in god, that’s the point…
Religious rhetoric is claiming that ones right to practice their magic rituals at a specific pin drop on Google maps is reason enough to continue a war instead of making peace.
I’m doing anti-religious rhetoric.
Ok but if someone commits heinous crimes how can you judge the whole population about that if "polls don't matter".
What? Why would you judge a whole population over someone committing a heinous crime?
I mean is your claim truly that until they personally assassinate someone they aren't a threat, even if they explicitly tell you they do agree with the assassinations?
Do you know how many armchair Irish Republicans I've met over the years? Singing their rebel songs while wearing their Celtic jerseys or screeching "UP THE 'RA!" when drunk? How do you think they'd have answered polls, circa 1970s-90s? Being a blowhard doesn't necessarily make you an actual threat and people are allowed to have opinions, even if they're ones you disagree with. That's why it's awesome to live in a free country. You're essentially talking Thought Crime here.
What is more dangerous long term for everyone, one assassin, or tens of millions cheering the assassination?
One assassin. Lots are cheering on Luigi. Said lots aren't going out committing murder though, they're just getting a vicarious thrill outa things at worst, or have at least understandable reasons for cheering and not having sympathy for some shady corporate guy getting killed, even if I disagree with the cheering part. Long as they don't go out and murder they can clickety-clack away rhapsodising on social media to their hearts' content and answer to all the polls they like, however they like. The guy/groups who actually assassinate is /are far more dangerous and far more of a threat than cheerleaders.
Don’t think anyone was claiming that until you derailed the thread but ok. You seem to have a pretty inaccurate perception of Israel’s motivations in this conflict.
