Israel/Palestine thread

Ullbricht wasn't charged with hiring a hitman.

they used the false allegation to get him jailed for life, typical abuse of power by the fascist enemies of the people.

then they dropped the allegation after they couldn't prove it, but it had already caused significant effects

/

Federal prosecutors alleged that Ulbricht had paid $730,000 in murder-for-hire deals targeting at least five people,[29] because they purportedly threatened to reveal the Silk Road enterprise.[35][36] Prosecutors state that no contracted killing ever actually occurred.[29] Ulbricht was not charged in his trial in New York federal court with this offense,[29][37] though some evidence was introduced at trial supporting the allegations.[29][38] The district court found by a preponderance of the evidence that Ulbricht probably sent messages inquiring about such orders.[39] The possibility that Ulbricht might have commissioned hits was considered by the judge in sentencing Ulbricht to life and was a factor in the Second Circuit's decision to uphold the sentence.[38] Ulbricht was separately indicted in federal court in Maryland on a single related charge, alleging that he contracted to have one of his employees (a former Silk Road moderator) killed.[40] Prosecutors ultimately moved to drop this indictment as it was lacking in substantive evidence and after his New York conviction on other charges became final.[41][42]

It's looking like Trump wants to move the "Palestinians" out of Gaza. I don't think anybody will take them given the trouble they have caused.

Good.

It has nothing to do with left or right, nor can such a term be retroactively defined by non-active parties.

Had it not been for the Balkans the term would never exist, and it is therefore the standard the term should be defined by.

Croats aimed to cleanse NDH of Serbs, Serbs aimed to cleanse RS of Bosnians.

Foreign actors claim these people are “different ethnicities.” Anyone who knows jack **** about the region knows they are exactly the same, and the only thing that separates them is religion.

Ariel Sharon was found responsible for ignoring the danger of Phalangist reprisals against the population of the refugee camps. The Phalangists could have been allowed into the camps only if the IDF had the power to effectively supervise their actions – but this was not done.

The Cohen committee also held Sharon responsible for not informing Begin in advance of the intention to allow the Phalangists into the camps.
Again, im very critical of Israel regarding this ordeal. There was most definitely an atmosphere of: let them kill each other, and lack of any regard for Palestinians life.
Im not debating those facts.

However, Vic is stating that Israel ordered, paid for and directed the massacre, which is a complete lie

As result of the findings, Sharon could not serve again as the minister of defense. Many more personal orders were issued against anyone who was found responsible for not preventing the massacre.

Now lets see how many similar comities were ever formed in our neighbor countries (including the Palestinians) after every war and/or massacre and/or conflict.
As per usual, we hold ourselves to a much higher degree of scrutiny and uphold actual accountability for every ordeal.

Which is why the definition is CULTURAL or RACIAL.

Which doesn't apply when comparing northeastern egyptians and residents of Gaza, which are actually the same people both culturally and racially

Btw your bold is wrong, it's religion AND LANGUAGE that separated bosnians and serbs.

Are you claiming Israel didn't provide flares and didn't prevent people from leaving? If you're not claiming this then again Israel at least had a hand in 5his either way you cut it. You yourself acknowledge they're liable for criticism in this instance. That doesn't mean this is some sort of gotcha as overall I'm pro Israel. But criticism is definitely warranted in this respect.

Criticism is fine. But at some point Arabs have to be treated as humans with agency, who are responsible for their own actions. We cant go forever only blaming "whites" or "Jews" for everything horrible an Arab group does in the Middle East (or anywhere else).

I'm not talking about Arabs and your expansion from criticising Gaza Palestinians to now including the entire Arab population is duly noted, as is your whataboutism.
In this very specific instance,criticising Israel is absolutely justified. Even if bad faith virulently anti Israel posters use it as a gotcha or to highlight how Israel Bad. The critique is still justified. No country on Earth deserves blind unquestioning support no matter what. That's it

Corpus, you are kinda missing both Dun and my points.
First, everyone agrees israel was in the wrong for Sabra and Shatila. We all stated this.
Dun was arguing that at the end of the day it was an Arab-on-Arab crime, and the Christian Arab phalanges have agency and are responsible for their deeds.

As for the flares, I find it hard to explain why this fact wasn’t Israel supporting the massacre, without giving specific military intel that is classified. You'll have to take my word (if you may) that this fact is not Israel supporting the massacre.
Did Sharon "enjoy" this Arab-on-Arab crime? Ofc. At the very least he didn’t object to it and did nothing to try and stop it.
Ffs – I was one of the people who objected to him becoming a prime minister, solely on this merit. I used to call him a blood thirsty maniac.
Having said all that, Israel is still not the party that committed the massacre. That is also a fact

Neither of you have points to make. You disingenuously claimed the IDF didn't commit the massacre, which was true but omitted greater context. Dun then engaged in whataboutism re Arabs in general, which I can instantly dismiss.
All isaid was critique against Israel in this specific regard is justified which you also acknowledged; so I'm not sure what the problem is here.

You are the one that brought up something that Arabs in Lebanon did 40 years ago, putting all the blame on Israel. You couldn't even name the groups/people that actually committed the massacre, but are so judgmental of the Israeli military commander for letting it happen.

I personally think this kind of paternalism is one of the big reasons nothing ever gets better in this part of the world. Because no one but Israel is ever held to account for anything bad they do.

But we can agree to disagree on this I guess.

Sabra and Shatila was such a stain on Israel, that Begin announced the day after the publishing of the Cohen committee report, that he is resigning from his position of prime minister. He eventually recounted his resignation, after a lot of pressure from Likud ministers, who were afraid of losing the government.

Moreover, after the ordeal, the atmosphere in Israel completely changed against the war.

The feeling was that we failed exactly in the same way the world failed stopping the holocaust. That we had the power to prevent it and did nothing.
Many commanders in the army decided to resign as they felt we lost our moral superiority and did not fulfill our commitment to humanity.

My dad, who served as a reserve soldier during the war, decided he would not do any more reserve duty (he eventually did but only after a few years).

come one man, we are saying the same thing and somehow are arguing about it...

All I cared was stating that Vic is laying (again) about this issue.

I readily stated from the start how Vic is imo a bad faith debater and yes we do essentially agree with each other. I have zero time for posters who make false accusations against Israel re genocide, apartheid, colonialism or any other bad faith bullshit terms they us. Yet again that doesn't mean Israel is immune to critique and in this instance it's warranted
And yes it is indeed a fact that the IDF didn't actually commit the massacre, nor have I accused them of this. I feel you were still being disingenuous for the reasons I outlined and I stand by that. We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

Oh poor old Israel. Subjected to UN resolutions for the illegal occupation and the butt of so many sanctions from countries across the world.

they absolutely organized and supported the massacre. they trained and armed the fighters and let them into the camps knowing full well their proxies would murder as many as possible. they sealed the camp so no one could escape. they interrogated abductees and returned them to the Phalangists to be murdered afterwards as well.

and there are plenty of reports of Israelis participating actually.

Israel trained the Christian forces and armed them? how did we ever miss that part... oh wait, those groups eventually became TZADAL.

God Vic, you are one stupid man

you think those fighters in the documentary were lying?

Stop lying. I never once brought this subject up and certainly didn't put entirety of blame on Israel and you're projecting as it's you who seems to be attempting to solely blame "The Arabs " on this. If you're going to debate dishonestly and make up false claims about me, then we're done here.

Vic, I used to enjoy debating you at first, because I thought you are at least a thinking man.

Now that I see you have zero reading comprehension or basic logical thinking, I don't really know how to continue.

Im not really here to debate you. I do enjoy pointing out your easily refuted lies.