Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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34292 Replies
It seems pretty clear the Israel govt has taken the stance from the beginning that they're willing to trade the hostage's lives in exchange for the defeat of Hamas and a future of no more hostages being taken again. There was that hostage rescue last year where Israeli citizens were being held in Gaza apartments, so the Israeli govt is aware all hostages are/were not safely stashed in Hamas tunnels and the bombing continued. They're fighting an enemy that is willing to sacrifice their civilian p
I think it goes even beyond this. For the last few decades the various groups tying to destroy Israel have (correctly) deduced it is a +EV strategy to kidnap Israelis (even bodies).
The general strategy is: A kidnapping occurs, Israel does a limited response, the international community comes in and offers very generous terms to the kidnappers to end the limited response, Israel offers very generous terms to get the hostage/bodies back. Rinse repeat.
For good or bad, the Netanyahu regime has decided to completely change the incentive structure, to make it clear this will no longer be a +EV strategy moving forward.
And I would be remiss to point out that yes, the Netanyahu regime is definitely risking the hostages lives with their belligerence; and is receiving significant pushback for it. But at the same time Hamas has been risking millions of Palestinian lives with no real upside, and has gotten very little pushback. At some point the international community has to come to terms with the monster they have created with this very permissive attitude.
Because of stone age tribalism I dont really expect the Ummah to ever really address their complicity; but it is disappointing the Western world seems insistent on creating such perverse incentive structures. Although many western countries have large Muslim populations (where a minority will commit terrorism on your civilian population if you upset them) and economic interests doing business with Muslim nations, so they have to balance the potential costs of making Muslims/Arabs angry by doing the right thing.
And on top of this, many westerners are just true believers who support the Palestinian cause to conquer Israel and drive the Jews into the sea.
Imagine these guys taking down a passenger airline flight? Have to imagine that's going to get a coalition on them.
https://x.com/SuppressedNws/status/19032...
First, it's not a concentration camp. Go ahead and google the holocaust and see what a real concentration camp is and then hopefully come back and apologize to our Jewish community. Second, however you want to describe their situation they put themselves there. There has never been a group of people who have been a "victim" for as long as these people. Throughout history there have been people who have gone through tough situations but eventually dug themselves out of it and eventually prospered
Well I, and many who are considered experts in both human rights and the Palestinian predicament, say that Gaza is a concentration camp. It's an accurate shorthand for the list of conditions imposed on the people of Gaza which I won't list because we all know them and we all know they match with the conditions defined by a concentration camp. By denying it you are just showing that you feel entitled to deny obvious truths, that you are taking on the character of the fascist state of Israel, giving evidence of the spread of Israel's social toxicity. And you pick a particularly bad moment to bring up comparisons to a particular set of concentration camps, those endured by Jews in the Holocaust, because they people in Gaza are, more and more, experiencing those very conditions in their particular concentration camp as they are being starved and deprived of the basic necessities of life.
You people who want to sound smart like to make these statements in the form of "there has never been" or "in all human history" to dress up your utter lack of substance and accuracy. I hear that kind of thing and I know immediately I'm hearing an uneducated person. There have definitely been people who have been victimized for longer than the Palestinians. In our own country black people were enslaved for longer. But the examples don't nearly stop there. If you were open to admitting you were wrong I would take the effort to educate you further but you are not.
Jews lost somewhere north of half their population in the Holocaust. But I would reckon that, if representatives of the Jewish people, or any people, had to choose between losing half their population or be thrust into a form of transgenerational oppression such as visited upon the blacks in the U.S. or the Palestinians in Israel, they would choose to lose half their population. Seeing your children born into concentration camps or into bondage is worse than even that kind of hit to the population numbers. You can move on more easily from physical decimation than of cultural decimation. Israel understands this and that is why their chief goal isn't even killing all the Arabs in the region, but making sure they are underdeveloped as states. That's why extremists maniacs are running around Syria right now, because that's what Israel wanted, because Israel is the purest evil we've seen since WWII.
Israel’s Defense Minister Threatens Permanent Occupation of Parts of Gaza
Israel’s Defense Minister Israel Katz threatened permanent occupation of parts of the Gaza Strip and the displacement of its population if Hamas doesn’t release its remaining hostages, ramping up pressure on the group after ending a two-month cease-fire this week.
I'm sure this will increase the likelihood of saving the hostages and lessen the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
I called this ONE day before...
Trump + Bibi has totally flipped this thing
One guy is trying to save his job, and the other to get his peace prize. Bad combo
Israel moved troops back into the Netzarim Corridor across the middle of the Strip three days ago.
The bombing commenced on Tuesday, and included the destruction of the Strip's only specialist cancer hospital, which is (or was) in the Netzarim Corridor, and Israel had already stopped all supplies of food, fuel and humanitarian supplies to Gaza. The Israelis claimed that this was to encourage Hamas to negotiate, but the Netanyahu government had long made clear that it didn't want to negotiate and was not interested in Stage 2 of the ceasefire and would rather resume war operations. The remaining hostages' families are not pleased.
Meanwhile, owing to the Supreme Court ruling, Netanyahu can't for now get rid of the head of Shin Bet, who has been showing too much interest in the financial links between the Netanyahu clique and Qatar.
The holocaust isn’t the only occurrence of concentration camps, dummy, it wasn’t even the first, and they don’t all look like that. Your ignorance on display as usual.
There are a number of precedents. But a few years ago the veteran BBC reporter Jeremy Bowen, standing outside that weird barred-in tunnel walkway that Gazans with Israeli work permits had to use, said, 'The world's biggest open-air prison camp? It looks like it.' Earlier, the then PM David Cameron said this:--
And this 2018 debate in the House of Lords, by members largely sympathetic to Israel, is quite interesting.
Can someone who thinks Gaza was a concentration camp actually provide a definition of concentration camp that captures what people mean when they use that term historically that would apply to Gaza?
And on top of this, many westerners are just true believers who support the Palestinian cause to conquer Israel and drive the Jews into the sea.
I've been putting a decent amount of thought into this, listening to some more reasonable pro-Israel podcasts (Econtalk being the best), and they always come back to Israel being necessary because the US didn't admit the Jewish refugees post-WW2. In light of this, I think the ultimate resolution to the conflict will be the following:
1) The US, whether through younger generations taking over, international pressure, jostling for sphere of influence with China/Russia, or the insanely unsustainable fiscal situation, will cancel funding to Israel.
2) In exchange, all Israeli citizens will be offered US citizenship. If they want to fight it out without free unlimited ammo, they will be free to do so, but nuking anyone will be a red line.
And that's pretty much it. This way Israel gets a chance to see if they are self-sufficient; the US stops looking terrible, fostering disillusionment in the youth, leaking soft power to China/Russia, and hemorrhaging funds they don't have; and the Arabs will be in a more reasonable negotiating position that won't require terrorism/hostage-taking in order to have any sort of leverage.
I've been putting a decent amount of thought into this, listening to some more reasonable pro-Israel podcasts (Econtalk being the best), and they always come back to Israel being necessary because the US didn't admit the Jewish refugees post-WW2. In light of this, I think the ultimately resolution to the conflict will be the following:
1) The US, whether through younger generations taking over, international pressure, jostling for sphere of influence with China/Russia. or the insanely unsustaina
Israel is anything but stupid. When the US starts to defund them, they'll have new partners lined up to fill the gap. And most likely it will be Israel to disengage at that point as they will see it coming a mile away already.
I've been putting a decent amount of thought into this, listening to some more reasonable pro-Israel podcasts (Econtalk being the best), and they always come back to Israel being necessary because the US didn't admit the Jewish refugees post-WW2. In light of this, I think the ultimate resolution to the conflict will be the following:
1) The US, whether through younger generations taking over, international pressure, jostling for sphere of influence with China/Russia, or the insanely unsustainabl
What is the “insanely unsustainable fiscal situation”? The money we send to Israel is actually a minute fraction of the defense budget and from my understanding, much of the money gets reinvested in the US defense sector.
It gets an outsized amount of attention because of “reasons” but I’ve never seen the claim that the relationship is unsustainable backed up with numbers. It seems the sentiment is more that the relationship is unsustainable in the face of rising antisemitism and apathy towards Israel’s survival within the US population.
Can someone who thinks Gaza was a concentration camp actually provide a definition of concentration camp that captures what people mean when they use that term historically that would apply to Gaza?
Have you seen the 60 minute videos of the guy who'd drive around Gaza to visit it on youtube, before Oct 7th?
You'd see why "concentration camp" to describe it is absurd if you'd seen one of those videos.
I've been putting a decent amount of thought into this, listening to some more reasonable pro-Israel podcasts (Econtalk being the best), and they always come back to Israel being necessary because the US didn't admit the Jewish refugees post-WW2. In light of this, I think the ultimate resolution to the conflict will be the following:
1) The US, whether through younger generations taking over, international pressure, jostling for sphere of influence with China/Russia, or the insanely unsustainabl
You understand the other side is 100% subsidized by outside nations, including the US. They have no economy, no water, no food, no eletricity production, no weapons production, nothing. Are you applying this standard to the Palestinian territories too? Because if you did, Israel could just turn off the electricity and water, and everyone would have to leave or die of hunger/thirst, and Israel would win by default.
Anyways, the point is; as much as Israel is being supported from the outside, the Palestinians have the same dynamic x1000.
Imagine these guys taking down a passenger airline flight? Have to imagine that's going to get a coalition on them.
Hamas’ victims on Oct 7th represented a variety of nations and a lot of people around the world could not care less.
The Houthis have been firing on international trade ships for over a year now and most of the world could not care less.
It’s unclear at this point what, if anything would invoke an international response against Hamas, Houthis, etc.
Israel is anything but stupid. When the US starts to defund them, they'll have new partners lined up to fill the gap. And most likely it will be Israel to disengage at that point as they will see it coming a mile away already.
On top of this, Israel's strategy would by necessity become much more ruthless. Being as humane as they have been is a condition of the current resupply dynamics.
Without this, Israel would basically have to be what they are all ready in bad faith being accused of. To get more bang for their buck they might have to basically make Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza completely unlivable (which they could easily do).
Hamas’ victims on Oct 7th represented a variety of nations and a lot of people around the world could not care less.
The Houthis have been firing on international trade ships for over a year now and most of the world could not care less.
It’s unclear at this point what, if anything would invoke an international response against Hamas, Houthis, etc.
You forgot that Yemen requires a tremendous amount of aid, as their economy cannot support their large population; and the UN (who is providing the aid) had to leave Saana because the Houthis kept kidnapping all their workers. And the international community has been pretty agnostic about this.
Nice try
The Houthis have been firing on international trade ships for over a year now and most of the world could not care less
How are you guys so bad at basic facts?
Have you seen the 60 minute videos of the guy who'd drive around Gaza to visit it on youtube, before Oct 7th?
You'd see why "concentration camp" to describe it is absurd if you'd seen one of those videos.
We don’t even need that. We just need to look at the news reports of how many hospitals, schools, businesses, and houses got bombed. If Gaza was a concentration camp, they wouldn’t have had that level of development in the first place.
It’s absolutely terrible how much of that was destroyed, but that’s mainly on Hamas for not releasing the hostages and for operating out of civilian infrastructure.
I’m going to guess that you didn’t read the NATO report, don’t have any interest in being informed, and have no intention of having an honest discussion.
There’s just no point in continuing a discussion with someone who doesn’t even have a baseline of context on the conflict. If you want to be emotional without any logical thought, you’ll probably be better received on Twitter or TikTok.
I understand it .
Clearly u didn’t see platoon …
Keep believing killing innocent civilian is acceptable.
That is what war do, it dehumanizes people .
I guess will talk back later when Israel reach a 100 -1 ratio if you had enough blood .
Who cares what the ratio of people killed is? The Israelis live next to a bunch of homicidal maniacs who have made it known that they want to kill all of the Jews. They have fired rockets and thrown rocks and blown up busses etc for many years. Then they attack on Oct 7th with the goal of killing as many Israelis as possible and with the hopes that 30k Hezbollah terrorists from the north attack and they meet in the middle. This tacit support of Hamas from the beta virtue signaling liberals needs
Might be the stupidest comment I ever heard .
Ps: that is what you are supporting today -> homicidal maniacs ….
Except it’s killed all the Palestinians .
I may start labeling the varying degrees of moral disengagement on display here, just for educational purposes
Maybe we should revert back to the death penalty worldwide again, except this time, when the killer is executed , we shall kill all its relative too ….
That’s pretty much where we are .
One of the problems with the death penalty is that it doesn't only penalise the guilty.
