Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
I didn’t know Auschwitz allowed people to get work permits into Nazi Germany and take back money, had an independent government structure ruled by a Jewish political party, had a growing population, had the support of international institutions, didn’t have gas chambers, and on and on.
I too started off believing that Victor was wrong, then I did the analysis and it seems that part of Gaza is like Auschwitz
You have your opinion on what Judaism is, and other people have different opinions.
Hiter was only wrong because he lost. Winners write the history books. If Hitler had won WWII and killed 100% of European Jews (instead of the paltry 65% he was able to kill) his opinion would have been the correct one.
Most people agree with the Nazi idea that people are born Jewish or have Jewish blood. Certainly Zionists do.
Most people agree with the Nazi idea that people are born Jewish or have Jewish blood. Certainly Zionists do.
When it comes to hugely subjective anthropologic measures; if the majority of people believe something, or just as important act like they believe something, than that is the truth.
Egyptians are Arabs, Kurds aren't, and Jews are a race.
It is what it is.
--My main gripe with the whole infinite gender side of the gender debate isn't that gender isn't a subjective term, its that progressives are demanding people accept an unworkable definition, or more importantly they are demanding they act like they believe something they dont.
--Your argument Judaism is just a religion has the same problem. Most people in the world dont actually believe this and their actions reflect this.
and my main reason for not really caring about the gender debate and all that is bc its relatively harmless.
but the current idea that Jews are some special race or ethnicity or chose people is responsible in large part for the mass murder of millions.
As a related aside, there is a whole niche genre of Youtube of Turks taking genetic tests and discovering they generally have very little Turkish DNA. Which they can all laugh about because they are the descendants of winners, so which is all that matters. So they are Turks.
If someone else came along and decided anyone without Turkish DNA had to go to concentration camps for extermination it wouldn't be so funny I imagine.
I mean, if your argument is that Turkey India Pakistan and Bangladesh and others did genocides then why do you care at all about the Holocaust?
I mean, if your argument is that Turkey India Pakistan and Bangladesh and others did genocides then why do you care at all about the Holocaust?
First off, I believe the Holocaust/Naziism has been way over-determined as a singular event in world history. And people who talk about it now, especially you, mostly do so in bad faith.
I think Palestinians should just leave and move on with their lives because they lost every war to retake Israel, the whole Gaza/West Bank ghetto isn't working, the 2 state solution is DOA; and this would be the best way to resolve things.
Another alternative is what is currently going on. Where Palestinians and allies refuse to make peace, string Western suckers along to pay for their never-ending resistance, with the ultimate goal of destroying Israel. The Jews aren't going back to Poland and I think the current path is going to end very poorly for everyone.
First off, I believe the Holocaust/Naziism has been way over-determined as a singular event in world history.
I agree but it was taught to Westerners as the worst and most unique crime in all of human history. I certainly believed so without even really realizing my bias from indoctrination. its place in education, culture, and media makes it maybe the most important Western touchstone.
And people who talk about it now, especially you, mostly do so in bad faith.
no idea what this means.
but the current idea that Jews are some special race or ethnicity or chose people is responsible in large part for the mass murder of millions.
I agree that a lot of evil that Jews have done has come from this belief - as well as much of the evil that was done to Jews. Jewish God-given supremacy - a mainstream idea among Jews even subtly - has a lot to answer for
It also has done a lot of good. Their isolation in Europe created a high intelligence, high effort, high education culture and selection pressure. They thought their own thoughts, developed their own views outside of the Christian ethos, developed their own high end education. They contributed a great deal to science and the intellectualizing of society; for example; most physicists who did anything worthwhile were Jewish or German or both.
What would the world be like without them? What would Jewish society be like without this belief? Very hard to say definitively. It's one of the many great questions I hope to have an answer to one day. Probably some future AI can analyze it quite well. But I think this belief has been the main thing that shaped Jews into what they became and what they contributed.
I'm generally of the opinion that diversity in this world (in the broad sense of different cultures, look, DNA, traits, talents existing in distinct groups) is one of the few objectively wonderful things, and Judaism and its fruits is certainly very unique.
I agree but it was taught to Westerners as the worst and most unique crime in all of human history. I certainly believed so without even really realizing my bias from indoctrination. its place in education, culture, and media makes it maybe the most important Western touchstone.
no idea what this means.
Yes, Jews have profited immensely from using that, and they've actively used it. Because of the Holocaust they're not merely just another state doing questionable things (just in the region alone the Kurds have acted far more nobly and been treated far more harshly than Israelis ever have, and get almost no attention). Because of it they can't be criticized without someone yelling Nazi (look at this thread). It's certainly been used as a shield for evil and undue influence, and also as a weapon to silence legitimate complaints and questions. Mel Gibson couldn't even rant about Jewish influence without getting ostracized. Name another group/culture that has that power pre wokeness?
In the final analysis, the Jewish state is still the best one in the region - better than Palestine, better than Hezbollah destroyed Jordan. They have a free society, safe for women without oppression, safe for all religions and none. They don't attack anyone who doesn't attack them first. Those facts speak louder than anything.
First off, I believe the Holocaust/Naziism has been way over-determined as a singular event in world history. And people who talk about it now, especially you, mostly do so in bad faith. I think Palestinians should just leave and move on with their lives because they lost every war to retake Israel, the whole Gaza/West Bank ghetto isn't working, the 2 state solution is DOA; a
Leave to where? Jordan? The best thing is that Egypt absorbs them and grabs a bit of Israel as it does. But Egypt wants nothing at all to do with them, because most of them are snakes after extreme decades and hate and a violent mentality. The other alternative is Jordan (and give them some of Israel), but you can see how Palestinians have utterly destroyed Lebanon; it used to be quite peaceful and thriving before their numbers soared and they started getting militant against Christians (notice a trend)?
I think the problem is larger than leaving; it's in the people themselves and the culture they're bound to. Lebanon proves that
The other alternative is Jordan (and give them some of Israel), but you can see how Palestinians have utterly destroyed Lebanon...
You may have forgotten that the PLO moved to Lebanon when Jordan threw them out in what was called Black September because they'd become intolerable. They then left Lebanon due to the Israeli offensive in 1982. The problem there now is Iran's catspaw Hezbollah. And Jordan renounced its claim to the West Bank a long time ago and Israel is still engaged in annexing it and making West Bank Arab lives miserable. Israel won't give any of it up unless presented with force majeure by a serious international coalition, which the US veto on the Security Council rules out.
Most people agree with the Nazi idea that people are born Jewish or have Jewish blood. Certainly Zionists do.
Most people, but not the UK PM who converted to Judaism and now wears a Kippah sometimes.
In the final analysis, the Jewish state is still the best one in the region - better than Palestine, better than Hezbollah destroyed Jordan.
It's the only state in the region to commit genocide, not declare its borders, and keep seizing new territory. The treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza is LOL democratic. It's an ugly apartheid regime.
Leave to where? Jordan? The best thing is that Egypt absorbs them and grabs a bit of Israel as it does. But Egypt wants nothing at all to do with them, because most of them are snakes after extreme decades and hate and a violent mentality. The other alternative is Jordan (and give them some of Israel), but you can see how Palestinians have utterly destroyed Lebanon; it used to
I agree today's geopolitical climate unecessarily makes Palestinians leaving and moving on with their lives extremely challenging. Which is a shame, because everyone, especially them, would be better off if they just moved on, like the uncounted millions of other peoples displaced by 20th century wars. Most people will move on if you give them a chance and dont indulge self-destructive antisocial behavior.
The current geopolitical climate is too toxic, incentive structures too maladaptive and internal and external radicalization too high for the Palestinian people to have any hope of becoming a functional society. Israel could act less cynically but it wouldn't matter in the slightest as far as making things better. There would just be more dead Jews.
If you're a clever grifter you can make bank off the Holocaust.
On a somewhat related point, a movie critic (don't remember who) noted that one of the benefits of World War II was the production of a huge number of great movies based on the war.
I doubt George C. Scott wins an Academy Award for Best Actor without the war.
I agree today's geopolitical climate unecessarily makes Palestinians leaving and moving on with their lives extremely challenging. Which is a shame, because everyone, especially them, would be better off if they just moved on, like the uncounted millions of other peoples displaced by 20th century wars. Most people will move on if you give them a chance and dont indulge self-d
Yeah without years long hate reeducation, I don't have much hope for them.
Germany was bombed into oblivion (many cities near ruin), then their citizens (men, women and children) spent months and years in concentration camps, many open air and living far worse than Palestinians do. An active process of de-Nazification over years was required. Palestianians to me seem much more rabidly fundamental than the average Nazi (let alone the average German back then), and Islam adds to it as well - they can claim scripture justifies it, which it does. I have zero hope for them, and I'm pretty hopeful about most things.
The current geopolitical climate is too toxic, incentive structures too maladaptive and internal and external radicalization too high for the Palestinian people to have any hope of becoming a functional society. Israel could act less cynically but it wouldn't matter in the slightest as far as making things better. There would just be more dead Jews.
When did we lose the era of having big solutions to big problems? Two or three generations now have lived far too comfortable to deal with reality. Trump is trying to bring some of it back (Venezuela was a nice move), but it's nowhere near the scale needed.
What would you call October 7? A genocide without the means to carry it out further.
not declare its borders
Palestine says its borders are all of Israel ("from the river to sea") so this is just factually wrong
and keep seizing new territory.
Guide how to not to lose your stuff or get bombed
1. Don't fire rockets into neighboring countries
It's not hard. It's a one step plan! Gaza and Lebanon both failed at it.
The treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza is LOL democratic. It's an ugly apartheid regime.
Would you agree that Israel would probably be like Lebanon had they not let Gaza be its own state?
The killing of Israeli soldiers prompted fury within Israel, with the national security minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir, calling for scorched earth in Lebanon.
“With all due respect to the Americans, Israel must make it clear to the entire world that the blood of our sons and the security of our citizens are not up for bargaining. All of Lebanon must burn,” Ben-Gvir said in a statement.
Really, someone needs to stop handing these guys weapons. A little humility is necessary.
There was much speculation that he had fully converted after being brought up Anglican, but chose to keep it to himself, probably for political reasons. As we know to our cost, he's more than capable of holding two different opinions or beliefs at the same time.
"my… um… parent’s family are Jewish and we’ve got extended family in Israel that we feel this [our jewishness] every day."
He observes Shabbat every week (strange behaviour for someone who describes himself as atheist) and his wife is Jewish, which would also explain a conversion.
Really, someone needs to stop handing these guys weapons. A little humility is necessary.
Actually the real problem is that no one hands these guys weapons, because they dont fight. The Israeli far right warhawks being the only group that doesn't fight creates a very bad incentive structure.
I admit I cant really wrap my head around a society where the religious zealots who want war and conquest dont want to do any of the fighting themselves. Whatever criticism you may have of Islamic religious zealots, at least they largely are willing to put their money where there mouth is.
Not about Israel per se but I thought victor would enjoy this reddit post:
There was much speculation that he had fully converted after being brought up Anglican, but chose to keep it to himself, probably for political reasons. As we know to our cost, he's more than capable of holding two different opinions or beliefs at the same time. "my… um… parent’s family are Jewish and we’ve got extended family in Israel that we feel this [our jewishness] every
Although actual born Jews can be as atheist as they like ('A Jew believes in one god or fewer'), I think you have to profess a belief in God to apply for conversion, and this would be tricky for a publicly declared atheist. His wife and children are Jewish, but he isn't.
Not about Israel per se but I thought victor would enjoy this reddit post:
lol thats amazing
