Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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--Even ignoring the commentary of the author of the tweet, this is the "moderate" Haniyeh leading a performative religious celebration in realtime to celebrate a live-streamed pogrom of Jewish civilians being murdered and kidnapped by Hamas terrorists. If this is the behavior of a "moderate," it really begs the question what being a Palestinian moderate even means.
And if this is an example of playing to the base, what does that say about the Palestinian base, and how much we should be bending over backwards to accommodate their political desires?
If you actually looked at his words and actions, I doubt Haniyeh is any more moderate than Itamar Ben Gvir (an Israeli far right politician) who is vilified as the devil incarnate by most liberal western media, including Israeli media.
So again, begs the question who is behind this PR campaign, and why?
where would this state be located?
Which do you think is the more moderate of these two options:
1. Planning the murder and kidnapping of Jewish civilians and then enacting the plan.
2. Celebrating Jewish civilians murdered and kidnapped by Hamas terrorists during that plan.
No one is saying he is a moderate. The word you keep not including, "relative", is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
Israel is not getting rid of Hamas. Eventually they will have to deal with the version of Hamas they are creating right now: one where the RELATIVE moderates who were happy with the status quo which allowed them to spend the millions they siphoned in safety (but would pay lip service to the destruction of Israel when it was expected of them) are dead, and the Sinwars who are actively planning events like October 7 have replaced them.
Israel is not getting rid of Hamas. Eventually they will have to deal with the version of Hamas they are creating right now: one where the RELATIVE moderates who were happy with the status quo which allowed them to spend the millions they siphoned in safety (but would pay lip service to the destruction of Israel when it was expected of them) are dead, and the Sinwars who are actively planning events like October 7 have replaced them.
Part of being a moderate is convincing the other side you are someone they can deal with to achieve a mutual resolution. There is nothing to indicate Haniyeh was doing anything towards this end.
Like I said, the West wants there to be a moderate Hamas/Palestinian partner to work with very bad. And they are wish casting the existence of one when it just isn't there.
Maybe Israel really does need to be more pragmatic. But in that same vein, I think the West needs to be more honest with themselves what they are dealing with on the Palestinian end. There is no moderate leadership working towards a peaceful 2 state solution, and pretending there is isn't helping anyone.
That's a hopeless way to approach talks. The people we need are more of the ilk of Martin McGuinness and Jerry Adams than anything you describe. People who some would probably have supported assassinating but ultimately people trusted by their own hardliners who were willing to talk.
Which do you think is the more moderate of these two options:
1. Planning the murder and kidnapping of Jewish civilians and then enacting the plan.
2. Celebrating Jewish civilians murdered and kidnapped by Hamas terrorists during that plan.
No one is saying he is a moderate. The word you keep not including, "relative", is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
Israel is not getting rid of Hamas. Eventually they will have to deal with the version of Hamas they are creating right now: one where the RELATIVE m
Sinwar already had enough agency and power to orchestrate October 7th without direct involvement from these other leaders. The status quo under these relative moderates led to Oct 7. They were playing nice while their counterparts were planning a large scale terrorist attack, obviously not a path to peace.
Sinwar had largely sidelined the political wing. No one is suggesting going back to that system.
What are these suggestions? 5 South provided one above but it’s not really a political solution.
It’s not like the political wing was ready to oust the military wing following Oct 7.
Political wing must agree Israel has a right to exist.
Middle Eastern countries are brought in to police Gaza as it is rebuilt.
Foundation of 2 state solution is set up.
What are these suggestions? 5 South provided one above but it’s not really a political solution.
It’s not like the political wing was ready to oust the military wing following Oct 7.
I don't think I offered any solution. I agree with BGP as I think almost everyone does but both sides seem quite far apart.
I don't think Hamas is ever going to unconditionally surrender so it basically only leaves diplomacy or genocide.
One thing that’s been glossed over regarding the assassination in Lebanon is that when they want to, Israel can conduct an airstrike against a high value target in an urban area with minimal collateral damage.
One thing that’s been glossed over regarding the assassination in Lebanon is that when they want to, Israel can conduct an airstrike against a high value target in an urban area with minimal collateral damage.
they can. like the one in January. but they didnt this time and intentionally toppled the building so they could kill as many innocents, including children, as possible. 5 dead and over 70 injured so far is not minimal.
I don't think I offered any solution. I agree with BGP as I think almost everyone does but both sides seem quite far apart.
I don't think Hamas is ever going to unconditionally surrender so it basically only leaves diplomacy or genocide.
Sorry, not a solution but an alternative course of action.
Sure it’s not hard to agree on very general, idealistic notions like those.
Sorry, not a solution but an alternative course of action.
Sure it’s not hard to agree on very general, idealistic notions like those.
It turns out my proposal to do more surgical strikes and operations was a no go (still doesn't forgive bombing hospitals, Hamas "command center" or not).
I think it's been shown Israel does not have the resources nor enough highly trained elite units to pull that off in Gaza. Their losses would have been huge given Hamas infrastructure. Would have been a Mogadishu on a weekly if not daily basis.
One thing that’s been glossed over regarding the assassination in Lebanon is that when they want to, Israel can conduct an airstrike against a high value target in an urban area with minimal collateral damage.
They largely got cut off from the weapons required to do this. They aren't going to use their limited numbers in Gaza because Gaza has no way to really escalate with Israel, whereas Hezbollah and Iran both do.
It is an incredibly difficult situation because giving arms to Israel is an extremely contentious thing to do, but when left to their own devices they have chosen the cheaper, less precise weapons because they are far cheaper. Attacking a city, especially one as densely populated as Gaza, requires precision or else you end up with this. As far as America is concerned "give more weapons to save lives" is not a great political stance, but it seems like that would have been the better course of act
One thing that’s been glossed over regarding the assassination in Lebanon is that when they want to, Israel can conduct an airstrike against a high value target in an urban area with minimal collateral damage.
When the target isn't using human shields yes. Terrorist leaders in Teheran don't make base in hospitals or schools, unlike those in Gaza.
Teheran isn’t in Lebanon and the building that was hit was surrounded by many other civilian buildings.
well i was talking about the assassination in Teheran, and the building was surrounded as well.
In Gaza, unlike in Lebanon, Iran and wherever else the leaders hide spending UNRWA money on luxuries, the active terrorists use children, women, civilians as shields, on purpose.
That makes it impossible to assassinate them without collateral damage, and each and every one of those innocent lives lost is on Hamas, not on Israel. When hostages die in rescue attempts, or in attempts to neutralize the hostage taker, the responsibility of their death is always, in full, with no ifs and no buts, on the hostage taker.
Has anyone even done any analysis how the strike in Iran could have been carried out? All I know is the compound is supposedly in a valley surrounded by mountains; and a strike like that from afar would be almost impossible, not even getting into the necessary intelligence to know Haniyeh was there at that exact second.
Normally with this kind of stuff I see tweets (or even sometimes the MSM) will give an assessment of what probably happened. But in this case nothing.
I think JDAMs stopped being sent in April.
well, who knows. hamas are a few tens of thousands of poorly trained, poorly equipped terrorists hiding out in some tunnels, and i think they can be defeated.
Couldn't disagree more. Hamas has been showing up and regrouping in parts of Gaza that the IDF has left. Israel can't and won't beat them.
I wish they could. Even if my interest was just for the Palestinian people, Hamas has got to go.
