Israel/Palestine thread

they have been used to murder civilians for like a month now, most notably at the horrific Al Mawasi tent massacre.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/13/middleeas...

I guess the argument is that more civilians would have died without them but that seems outrageous to my lying eyes.

I wouldn't expect them to stop being used completely. Israel will just use them more sparingly and rely on their greater number of less accurate missiles without caring about the casualties.

they dont reduce civilian death.

Whether they surround themselves with civilians on purpose or by accident isn’t relevant to my point. Israel hit an urban center surrounded by civilians and had “minimal” collateral damage. That shows it’s possible. They choose not to in Gaza. If they could choose to do differently it’s on them.

Alright, but this is well after most of the destruction in Gaza.

The response to 10/7 isn't an assassination attempt, it is a war. Do you think if/when real war starts with Lebanon, Israel is going to limit itself to precise assassination attempts? If you do, prepare to be disappointed.

You come across as just an Israel hater. You are completely judgment free of its enemies, and highly critical of it. It is fine for you, and many other Westerners, to take this approach. But just accept that complete double standards is how one loses whatever moral authority/persuasive capital one has.

People that continually call for unconditional destruction of Israel are not moderates just because they are not personally executing Jewish children in their own beds. And pretending they are moderate is how you make yourself irrelevant to the conversation.

This isn't a personal attack. But you have an attitude/worldview that is very common among Western leaders that is a giant part of the problem IMO, which is why I am responding this way.

There are rules, even in war, and I’ve made it clear many times here that I don’t think Israel needed this war or that they’re prosecuting it in the only way possible. You’re talking about what is and I’m talking about what ought to be.

And I am absolutely a hater of the Israeli government, as I am of Hamas and probably every other government in that region. I’m not a hater of civilians on any side. I spend my time criticizing Israel because you and I agree that Hamas is garbage, but we don’t agree on the Israeli government. No need to debate Hamas.

As to the last paragraph, I never even gave my own opinion on whether the guy was a moderate. I was simply pointing out that you and Boids either can’t read or can’t argue in good faith, given how you both responded to Grizy.

Yeah that's why USA stopped sending them. It still certainly led to less restraint and less precision afterwards though. It absolutely caused the deaths of a lot of civilians in Rafah.

Or they could just not bomb civilians.

I hope they make that decision but not holding my breath.

Because there was minimal collateral damage in one instance means that it is possible to achieve all the time? It isn’t a game with standardized scenarios and variables. I’m not sure how you’re coming to this conclusion.

so it doesnt matter what weaponry gets sent if its all getting used on civilians. glad it took 10 months to get to the same conclusion I made within about 10 days.

Deif is now confirmed to be dead from a missile strike along with much of Hamas’ leadership so some of them were used on the right targets.

grizy is a veteran of the Posting Wars and i dont think he needs your assistance

weird that deif is dead given that hamas confirmed that he wasn't in that refugee camp to begin with, and that 120 of the 90 who died were women and children

You’re putting words in my mouth. I said it was possible. I never said it was always possible. Every Israel cheerleader in this thread has preached non-stop that there’s nothing Israel can do when it’s pointed out that their idea of proportionality is well out of line with that of their allies. This shows it’s theoretically possible to hit someone with an air strike that doesn’t also level every building on a block and kill dozens.

every few weeks they kill Deif. its pretty amazing. maybe hes like that dude from Game of Thrones that always comes back to life.

hm no the claim is that there is nothing Israel can do to guarantee a win in the war (the complete eradication of hamas), reducing the already minimal collateral damage even further, without risking IDF blood a lot more and/or killing fewer terrorists.

Israel is already doing much much much much more than it should to preserve civilian lives, the ratio of civilians killed to combatants/hamas helpers/hamas members is the lowest in the history of urban warfare

yea maybe 😀

Wasn’t doing it for his benefit.

Call me crazy, but killing children in order to possibly spare adult soldiers is deeply shameful and cowardly.

Also curious to know to what ends you think Israel should be going to to defeat Hamas that they aren’t already doing.

In a country with half of the population under 18, if you kill civilians (and you necessarily do in urban warfare when going after people in tunnels) you kill a lot of "children".

Moreover, a huge portion of those "children" are adolescent men , in the 13-17 age range for identified deaths boys are more than 70%. That's not random, that's because 15-16-17 y old can be and often are combatants.

And no it's not "shameful and cowardly" to put the lives of your soldiers in value above the lives of foreign civilians. It's what the totality of armies in all the history of the world always did.

And again, every single civilian who dies , dies because of Hamas choices. They could surrender at any time and no civilian would die anymore. They could stop using human shields and far fewer civilians would die.

Israel should carpet bomb more, and keep going as they did in the most intense parts of the war (when 7-8k died per month, instead of 1-2k like since april ).

They are plausibly taking their time to deal with the other Iran-sponsored threats and hoping for a Trump victory which would increase their range of options over a democratic victory for obvious reasons. They also have combat fatigue after several months on more than one front so i understand why they can't keep max pressure on.

I hope they are able to increase pressure again in the near future though and they don't wait for a coinflip election to determine their fate.

The recent targeted assassinations of terrorist leaders can help, they can do more of that of course as well. The process of eradication of a group that has massive popular support can be very long, but they are winning, and we should help win sooner

You’re stating a lot of opinions as if they were fact.

disgusting boos and whistles in the women judo gold final (italy v israel) at the israel athlete, antisemitism is everywhere these days, tolerated and encouraged by many.

Ignoring the rest of your post which is riddled with opinions stated as facts. The highlighted isn't exactly true. Hamas started the fight sure, Hamas should be eradicated. Agreed. Israel bombing ''safe'' zones isn't on Hamas. I'm sure you'll deny this has happened so I'm just wasting my time, but this idea that Israel is 100% clean and innocent here is ridiculous.

Some people are just anti-war/anti-peopledying my friend. Israel is doing a lot of killing lately, justified or not. It's not always anti-Semitism.

With all due respect, are you telling Israeli soldiers to die for Palestinian children that Hamas intentionally surrounds itself with?