Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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criticizing an athlete just because she is from Israel is antisemitism 101.
she isn't an elected representative enacting policies you disagree with, in which case it would be a criticism of a government.
you criticize that athlete to criticize the whole country, each and every one of its citizens
Nope. It's not.
It's criticizing a country through booing an athlete from that country who is currently in a war and taking actions many people don't agree with. I'm sure you have convinced yourself everything at this point is anti-Semitism. But again, some people are just anti-war anti-people dying. Not anti-theexistenceofIsrael or Jews.
it's not even a war, but a genocidal slaughter
not a monolith?
I havent looked yet, but I am willing to bet this particular athlete spent some time in the IDF helping with the oppression, apartheid, and murder of thousands of people.
idk which one she is, but yeah probably
where have i heard that before?
What matters is the risk you’re facing. Cops don’t deal with hostage situations with grenades. If the hostage taker had the ability and desire to blow up the whole city, the calculation would be different.
This is a case of a terrible crime having been committed against Israel but the attacker had no chance of ending the existence of the country. Israel chose to respond how they did. They weren’t left with no other option.
This isn’t a hostage situation involving cops. Idk why you keep proposing these ridiculous equivalencies that make no sense.
if he is a top of the world pianist playing the piano or chess player playing in a tournament? no wtf, it's a moral atrocity to politicize everything, and it's very leftist to violently force your politics by disrupting non political social life.
same as , as much as I hate taxes I don't support "just stop oil" like disruptions by groups who want to cut taxes (hint: they don't do that because they aren't leftists)
if he is a top of the world pianist playing the piano or chess player playing in a tournament? no wtf, it's a moral atrocity to politicize everything, and it's very leftist to violently force your politics by disrupting non political social life.
same as , as much as I hate taxes I don't support "just stop oil" like disruptions by groups who want to cut taxes (hint: they don't do that because they aren't leftists)
I don’t agree with booing athletes based on their nationality but the Olympics have always been highly politicized.
Has anyone even done any analysis how the strike in Iran could have been carried out? All I know is the compound is supposedly in a valley surrounded by mountains; and a strike like that from afar would be almost impossible, not even getting into the necessary intelligence to know Haniyeh was there at that exact second.
Normally with this kind of stuff I see tweets (or even sometimes the MSM) will give an assessment of what probably happened. But in this case nothing.
Talk to me Goose
This isnÂ’t a hostage situation involving cops. Idk why you keep proposing these ridiculous equivalencies that make no sense.
And I don’t know why you keep pretending you don’t understand how analogies work. Maybe you’re not pretending though. Analogies don’t need to be the exact same scenario to illustrate a point.
Let me spell it out for you. Criminal=Hamas, Hostage (aka human shield)=Palestinian civilians, Cops=Israel.
Criminal thinks using a hostage will deter police from killing them. In normal life, unless this was an extreme situation where many others would be saved by killing the hostage with the criminal, society doesn’t tolerate killing the hostage just because it’s easier or safer for the cops.
Given that I don’t think this war was necessary and Israel is not in a trolly car situation, I’m judging them as I would cops killing a hostage out of expediency rather than necessity.
And I don’t know why you keep pretending you don’t understand how analogies work. Maybe you’re not pretending though. Analogies don’t need to be the exact same scenario to illustrate a point.
Let me spell it out for you. Criminal=Hamas, Hostage (aka human shield)=Palestinian civilians, Cops=Israel.
Criminal thinks using a hostage will deter police from killing them. In normal life, unless this was an extreme situation where many others would be saved by killing the hostage with the criminal, soc
You want to know how your cops would react in a hostage situation? Look at Uvalde. The entire police force with military grade equipment was too afraid or lacked the training to confront a single armed combatant. It’s a ridiculous analogy.
You want to know how your cops would react in a hostage situation? Look at Uvalde. The entire police force with military grade equipment was too afraid or lacked the training to confront a single armed combatant. It’s a ridiculous analogy.
1. Picking an exception would’t disprove a general truth. I think most would agree cops don’t kill hostages on purpose almost ever and society thinks it’s bad unless there’s a very good reason.
2. This doesn’t disprove my point in any way. The cops didn’t blast away the kids. And the cops were highly criticized for their behavior.
1. Picking an exception would’t disprove a general truth. I think most would agree cops don’t kill hostages on purpose almost ever and society thinks it’s bad unless there’s a very good reason.
2. This doesn’t disprove my point in any way. The cops didn’t blast away the kids. And the cops were highly criticized for their behavior.
The IDF are in a war, operating in hostile enemy territory. The human shields are not analogous to hostages. The IDF do not have the same obligations to the Gazans that police do to hostages. There’s probably many more glaring differences. The analogy you’re drawing is incredibly weak.
That they chose. The war wasn’t forced on them even though a very bad thing happened to them. Declaring war isn’t a moral get out of jail free card, or even a legal one. You’re starting your analysis at point B (Israel at war, killing civilians) having accepted Israel’s position at face value and I’m saying how we arrived there from A (Oct 7) influences how we should think about B.
We could also consider if Israel could have ended the war since and whether their maximalist goals are justified given the threat they face and the cost to innocent people.
The human shields are not analogous to hostages.The IDF do not have the same obligations to the Gazans that police do to hostages.
Pretty sure a human shield is exactly what a hostage is. Those people didn’t choose to be “shields” and I don’t subscribe to the notion that citizens of another country have less moral value. Yes, the legal obligations are different but I’m clearly primarily talking about my view of morality.
Also just curious, if someone says something is “like finding a needle in a haystack”, is your criteria for evaluating the analogy based how similar the things are to needles or haystacks?
Like, if you saw something about a search and rescue situation on the news and someone with you said it would be like trying to find a needle in a haystack, would you argue it’s nothing like that since that’s a person and not a needle and they’re in the woods and not a haystack?
Also just curious, if someone says something is “like finding a needle in a haystack”, is your criteria for evaluating the analogy based how similar the things are to needles or haystacks?
Like, if you saw something about a search and rescue situation on the news and someone with you said it would be like trying to find a needle in a haystack, would you argue it’s nothing like that since that’s a person and not a needle and they’re in the woods and not a haystack?
Not interested in going down this tangent. Going to stick by the assertion that your run of the mill hostage situation is not analogous to the situations the IDF have been dealing with.
Hostages and human shields are certainly not the same and if you’re still stuck at this point then there’s not much point in continuing.
Turns out that the recently killed Al-Jazeera journalist was a Hamas member who took part in Oct 7. I think it’s safe to scratch him off the innocent list.
Also just curious, if someone says something is “like finding a needle in a haystack”, is your criteria for evaluating the analogy based how similar the things are to needles or haystacks?
Like, if you saw something about a search and rescue situation on the news and someone with you said it would be like trying to find a needle in a haystack, would you argue it’s nothing like that since that’s a person and not a needle and they’re in the woods and not a haystack?
It's classic piece of rhetoric to avoid the point and attack the person
When we compare A : B to C : D the point is with the relation between A and B being analagous in some way to the relationship between C and D. Those wishing to avoid/attack rather than understand, compare A with C or B with D.
It's nonsense with a fine tradition.
USA redeploying forces in the ME to safeguard Israel against possible attack by iran & co 👍
That they chose. The war wasn’t forced on them even though a very bad thing happened to them. Declaring war isn’t a moral get out of jail free card, or even a legal one. You’re starting your analysis at point B (Israel at war, killing civilians) having accepted Israel’s position at face value and I’m saying how we arrived there from A (Oct 7) influences how we should think about B.
We could also consider if Israel could have ended the war since and whether their maximalist goals are justified gi
Ehh what now?
Pretty sure a human shield is exactly what a hostage is
Yeah well you're wrong.
