Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
Both the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority (PA) in the West Bank and the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) in Gaza have in recent years carried out scores of arbitrary arrests for peaceful criticism of the authorities, particularly on social media, among independent journalists, on university campuses, and at demonstrations.
so not torture and murder. got it.
in fact, no different than the arrests of peaceful protesters in the USA. or social media posters in Israel and Europe.
no. Im gonna deny that it is equivalent to "torturing and murdering anyone who disagrees."
so not torture and murder. got it.
in fact, no different than the arrests of peaceful protesters in the USA. or social media posters in Israel and Europe.
no. Im gonna deny that it is equivalent to "torturing and murdering anyone who disagrees."
In the 25 years since Palestinians gained a degree of self-rule over the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, their authorities have established machineries of repression to crush dissent, including through the use of torture.
the PA and Hamas use detention to punish critics and deter them and others from further activism. In detention, security forces routinely taunt, threaten, beat, and force detainees into painful stress positions for hours at a time.
You're so ****ing lazy.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2...
There's a lot of links if you google.
I just want to get clear here. So you believe that Hamas and Palestinians are peace loving people, in general. And that they are oppressed an
we are talking about different things. people have claimed 2 things and I am looking for any evidence.
1. Gays are thrown off buildings (or otherwise murdered) often?
2. Hamas "tortures and murders anyone who disagrees"
your first link talks about collaborators with Israel in a time of war. and it mentions 23 killed. I just dont see that even remotely approaching the hyperbolic statements that have been made.
2nd link doesnt show any evidence of it approaching the extent proclaimed.
3rd link is not even remotely credible lol
So you believe that Hamas and Palestinians are peace loving people, in general
dont know, dont care, cant even measure
And that they are oppressed and occupied by Israel,
not just do I believe that, but the International Law and Courts and various Human Rights orgs agree.
and that if they only got, whatever they believe is their land back, they would just live in peace w/ their Israeli neighbors?
dont know but Hamas has offered to put their weapons. regardless, they have a right to armed resistance as an occupied and oppressed people.
It’s not their land. It’s the land they have been living on for hundreds of years until the pre IDF forces defeated the British forces and then took over their urban command center as their own
I don’t understand how you guys can conflate “torture anyone who disagrees” with “torture happens”
It’s not their land. It’s the land they have been living on for hundreds of years until the pre IDF forces defeated the British forces and then took over their urban command center as their own
This is not only false (it is their land, and no 'pre-IDF forces defeated the British forces' -- that is not a thing that ever happened except in the far-gone imaginations of extreme terrorist-supporting Zionists, as has been previously pointed out) but it is also implicitly and aggressively racist.
The UK has suspended about 30 out of 350 arms export licences to Israel, affecting components for military aircraft, because of legal advice to the Foreign Secretary that they might be used in contravention of international law. It won't have much material impact, but diplomatically it's a first since Britain blocked export of the Chieftain tank to Israel, and France blocked export of the Mirage V fighter, after the 1967 war in which Israel was the aggressor.
note that initially some Hamas guy claimed that Israel killed the 6 POWs. this was boosted by a lot of accounts but it didnt really seem credible to me. Obeida is credible and I guess they are unfortunately matching the brutality of the Israelis now.
We have discussed this before. The problem is not the aid, the problem is allowing Hamas to control the aid because there is no one in Gaza to help oversee it. Pretty much all "day after" proposals address this by suggesting some type of force there to oversee things.
Israel had the opportunity to oversee the distribution of aid in several areas and they declined, allowing Hamas to return and do it. So we know the current approach is not helping this situation: all it is doing is destroying areas
Meh. Fake news.
Western media and western elites have floated various proposals. But it is all just empty, and no one has any serious, workable day after ideas with the current incentive structures. At the end of the day, under the current incentive structures the Palestinian people are pretty content receiving their aid and using it to pursue Jihad. And they have no interest in any outside powers intervening to govern them.
As long as the unconditional Western aid keeps pouring in, along with Iranian weapons, and moral support from the entire Ummah; there is just no workable solutions any better than Israel just creates massive buffer zones and controls all borders to stop heavy weapons of war being smuggled in. And Hamas is starved of the ability to wage war.
we are talking about different things. people have claimed 2 things and I am looking for any evidence.
1. Gays are thrown off buildings (or otherwise murdered) often?
2. Hamas "tortures and murders anyone who disagrees"
your first link talks about collaborators with Israel in a time of war. and it mentions 23 killed. I just dont see that even remotely approaching the hyperbolic statements that have been made.
2nd link doesnt show any evidence of it approaching the extent proclaimed.
3rd link
Ok, got it.
Ya, I think at this point, there's really no evidence that anyone can provide that will get you out of your confirmation bias. You didn't believe the burning and raping of the 1200, myself and others post pictures and links. You don't believe Hamas is torturing and murdering, you get credible info, goal posts move again to it having to be gay people. I think if you were shown a video of a guy wrapped in the LGBTQ+ flag and beheaded by someone who said they were Hamas, you wouldn't belive it.
You literally have Israeli soldiers, risking their lives going into Gaza to rescue and save Palestinians that are trying to flee Hamas. Which is incredibly risky because there's little distinction between civilians and military. Not to mention, Hamas has no qualms with using civilians as bait. Where are the Israeli's, trying to flee Israel to escape their brutal regime, and where is Hamas to rescue them?
You were unwillingly to answer if you were a holocaust denier.
At this point I have to conclude you're not interested in truth around this discussion, you're just caught up in your confirmation bias. And why that bias exists, is for your own soul to work out. That's not for me to judge.
You can claim victory here though because I am bowing out for good this time. This thread is making me physically nauseous and sad to the point it's not healthy anymore for me to participate.
To others in here... this isn't about the land. It's not about the history. It's about protecting the innocent, and calling out radicalization for what it is... a scourge and threat to everyone who doesn't stand up to it.
A solid account of bearing witness to what's happening, for those who are interested:
Ya I try not to answer bad faith bullshit irrelevant questions. Usually I fail. But not that time!
The UK has suspended about 30 out of 350 arms export licences to Israel, affecting components for military aircraft, because of legal advice to the Foreign Secretary that they might be used in contravention of international law. It won't have much material impact, but diplomatically it's a first since Britain blocked export of the Chieftain tank to Israel, and France blocked export of the Mirage V fighter, after the 1967 war in which Israel was the aggressor.
yes electing pro Hamas MPs in the majority governing party has consequences
It probably would
but netanyahu doing so much damage to israel is real and has consequences. Starmer's labour party suspending arms license should be unbelievable.
This is not only false (it is their land, and no 'pre-IDF forces defeated the British forces' -- that is not a thing that ever happened except in the far-gone imaginations of extreme terrorist-supporting Zionists, as has been previously pointed out) but it is also implicitly and aggressively racist.
I’m sorry you’re completely wrong.
I’ve posted this many times but here you go
“ In World War II, British forces took control of Sarona and converted it into a prison camp for Germans. After the war, the German prisoners were deported, mostly to Australia, and Sarona became a British military and police base. The base was the site of the first-ever unconcealed Haganah attack on a British installation.[1]
The base was taken over by the Haganah on December 16, 1947, and renamed Camp Yehoshua after Yehoshua Globerman [he] (1905–1947), who was killed near Latrun while returning from a mission to Jerusalem.[1] It was the first independent Jewish military base in modern history.”
Can you read?
The base was the site of the first ever unconcealed Haganah attack on a British installation
So now that you know you’re wrong, how has your position changed on the conflict?
Haganah (Hebrew: הַהֲגָנָה ha-Haganah, lit. 'The Defense') was the main Zionist paramilitary organization that operated for the Yishuv in the British Mandate for Palestine.[2] It was founded in 1920 to defend the Yishuv's presence in the region, and was formally disbanded in 1948, when it became the core force integrated into the Israel Defense Forces shortly after the Israeli Declaration of Independence.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haganah
It doesn’t surprise me that one side ignores the facts that destroy their narrative.
Just because it is topical, here is a video that came out today of Hamas allegedly torturing a Palestinian who was criticizing them. One of these videos pops up a week or so.
As I have mentioned before, the fact these videos pop up continually, and most of the allegations of Israeli abuse that Victor alleges are almost never accompanied by any evidence is pretty telling most of the allegations against the IDF are fake propaganda.
Obviously, Palestinians are much more motivated to post video to corroborate Israeli abuse than Hamas. But the truth is most of the allegations against Israel are completely baseless.
If you want to criticize Israel for the stuff that actually happened that there is video evidence of, then that is fine. But given 2 million cameras in Gaza, not to mention the thousands of fake "journalists" that follow the IDF around, we should be extremely skeptical of allegations that rely completely on "eyewitness reports."
its the most well documented crime in history and every day has horrifying videos and evidence.
I am just wondering at which point the whole pro Hamas narrative will collapse into "jews killed Jesus Christ and it's well documented", from the "arguments" I read here it looks they are very close to that.
probably about the same time that you guys provide all this evidence of gays being thrown off buildings in Gaza. ie, never.
I am just wondering at which point the whole pro Hamas narrative will collapse into "jews killed Jesus Christ and it's well documented", from the "arguments" I read here it looks they are very close to that.
FWIW Muslims have their own origin myth that feeds and justifies antisemitism; namely the Saudi Arabian Jews that double crossed Muhammad and angered Allah. Their version of the end times also involves supernatural forces enacting a final judgment punishing the Jews.
FWIW Muslims have their own origin myth that feeds and justifies antisemitism; namely the Saudi Arabian Jews that double crossed Muhammad and angered Allah. Their version of the end times also involves supernatural forces enacting a final judgment punishing the Jews.
ah didn't know about that
sounds like Christianity judgement day.
I do like how "hostage deal now" has basically just turned into a euphemism for Netanyahu resigning and Israel unilaterally retreating while getting no hostages anytime soon. Given that probably most of the live hostages were recently murdered (6 a couple days ago and 6 more a couple weeks before that) what hostage deal is even on the table? There is none, and the official narrative is just kind of ignoring this.
A translation of a Hadith:
The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.
--Many (most?) Muslims today literally interpret the Jihad to retake Palestine as fulfilling this prophecy. Whatever the Palestinian movement started out as, Western elites obfuscating and refusing to acknowledge that it has basically transformed into what a lot of Muslims perceive as a Holy War to fulfill prophecies is a big problem IMO.
Which explains why even in nations whose elite leadership are trying to make peace with Israel and resolve the issue; most of their populace supports the absolutism and nihilismof groups like Hamas.
Secular westerners dont have very good theory of mind for how much religious leaders and group pressure dynamics feed the obstinance of the Ummah; even in places where leaders appear more reasonable.
bruv, I dont think we want to get into a whole "the holy book says..." discussion considering all of the absolutely murderous insane stuff in all of the Christian and Jewish books. ffs Israel is constantly referring to Amalek in this whole thing.
