Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Hamas power base was predicated on tunnel smuggling and stealing aid
Hamas's power base is the support of the Palestinian people. This support was on the decline before October 7, and the normalization between the Gulf Arab states and Israel threatened Hamas even more. This war has shown Hamas's popularity (one major factor in its power base) surge. Diplomatic efforts between Israel and the Gulf Arab states is likely not going to be as positive as before October 7.
While the tunnels and aid are assets of Hamas, they are not the power base. I also don't think they're going to disappear after this.
I don't think we have data to claim Hamas is more popular today in Gaza than in 2022 tbh
• When asked which political party or political trend they support, the largest percentage
selected Hamas (40%), followed by Fatah (20%), while 8% selected other or third-party
groups, and 33% said none of them or did not know. Three months ago, 34% supported
Hamas and 17% selected Fatah. Nine months ago, before the current war, support for Hamas
stood at 22% and support for Fatah stood at 26%.
Except when you go check other polls (by them)
March 2023
Of those who would participate, 33% say they will vote for Hamas and 35% say they will vote for Fatah, 9% will vote for all third parties combined, and 22% are undecided. Three months ago, vote for Hamas stood at 34% and Fatah at 34%. Vote for Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands today at 45% (compared to 43% three months ago) and for Fatah at 32% (compared to 30% three months ago). In the West Bank, vote for Hamas stands at 23% (compared to 26% three months ago) and Fatah at 38% (compared to 38% three months ago).
June 2022
Of those who would participate, 36% say they will vote for Hamas and 35% say they will vote for Fatah, 7% will vote for all other third parties combined, and 20% are undecided. Three months ago, vote for Hamas stood at 36% and Fatah at 42%. Vote for Hamas in the Gaza Strip stands today at 43% (compared to 47% three months ago) and for Fatah at 32% (compared to 37% three months ago). In the West Bank, vote for Hamas stands at 30% (compared to 27% three months ago) and Fatah at 37% (compared to 47% three months ago).
So, pretty stable if not slightly declining support for Hamas since 2022.
That is, if we want to believe these polls, which have problems, given people might fear answering "wrong" for various reasons
You are comparing two different stats: overall support vs "Of those who would participate" who would they vote for. Here's the sentence before your first quote:
"If new legislative elections were held today with the participation of all factions that participated in the 2006 elections, 67% say they would participate."
If 67% participate and from that pool 33% would have voted for Hamas then that suggests 22% overall support. That stat is probably listed in there, but I didn't find it and not going to search. This looks like the stat that is most reflective of overall support instead of who would vote for who if a vote was forced:
44% think Hamas and Fatah do not deserve to represent and lead the Palestinian
people; 26% think Hamas deserve to represent and lead the Palestinians and 24%
think Fatah deserves to do so
Here is the same section from June this year:
51% (compared to 49% three months ago) believe that Hamas is the most deserving of
representing and leading the Palestinian people today while 16% (compared to 17% three
months ago) believe that Fateh under the leadership of Abbas is more deserving; 27%
(compared to 29% three months ago) believe both are unworthy of representation and
leadership. Nine months ago, 27% said Hamas is the most deserving, 24% said Fateh led by
Abbas is the most deserving, and 44% said both are unworthy of representation and
leadership.
It's possible that these numbers are being coerced, but this is also totally believeable.
Hamas's power base is the support of the Palestinian people. This support was on the decline before October 7, and the normalization between the Gulf Arab states and Israel threatened Hamas even more. This war has shown Hamas's popularity (one major factor in its power base) surge. Diplomatic efforts between Israel and the Gulf Arab states is likely not going to be as positive as before October 7.
While the tunnels and aid are assets of Hamas, they are not the power base. I also don't think they
I think this is an argument aid as it is currently being implemented needs to be cut off. It just isn't workable to have such a completely dysfunctional society. The incentive structure is just completely broken.
The Palestinian people act like this because they are being conditioned and subsidized to do so. The aid pipeline needs to be completely reimagined to incentive them to be less dysfunctional and irrational. Hamas are horrible leaders who suck at every aspect of leading; that can only survive on being propped up by tremendous levels of Western subsidies.
It is crazy to me that people that make similar arguments about Israel, are so completely agnostic about the role western aid has played in the Palestinian dysfunction. When, because they rely completely on aid, it would actually have a much bigger effect in improving the situation if the West changed their stance with respect to the Palestinians.
I looked earlier and could not find it. As I said, it did not get the same amount of press (hardly surprising) and search results are dominated by other protests.
Hamas likely put an end to these quickly. Israel is a democracy, so freedom of speech is protected and these type of protests are allowed.
Have you been living under a rock the last 20 years? Hamas brutally tortures and kills anyone that criticizes them, often in public to serve as a future deterrent. I have personally shown several videos of this the last year. The Western world knows all this and just ignores it, because it isn't convenient to their preferred narrative.
Of course there is going to be no protests as long as the West props up Hamas to terrorize everyone, as it has been doing the last 20 years.
We have discussed this before. The problem is not the aid, the problem is allowing Hamas to control the aid because there is no one in Gaza to help oversee it. Pretty much all "day after" proposals address this by suggesting some type of force there to oversee things.
Israel had the opportunity to oversee the distribution of aid in several areas and they declined, allowing Hamas to return and do it. So we know the current approach is not helping this situation: all it is doing is destroying areas then allowing Hamas to return and play the hero.
Have you been living under a rock the last 20 years? Hamas brutally tortures and kills anyone that criticizes them, often in public to serve as a future deterrent. I have personally shown several videos of this the last year. The Western world knows all this and just ignores it, because it isn't convenient to their preferred narrative.
Of course there is going to be no protests as long as the West props up Hamas to terrorize everyone, as it has been doing the last 20 years.
yes but otoh the same was true 2 or 9 years ago so depending on the exact circumstances polls taken there (if taken always in the same way) can still show us something if the same variable is measured in time
Have you been living under a rock the last 20 years? Hamas brutally tortures and kills anyone that criticizes them, often in public to serve as a future deterrent. I have personally shown several videos of this the last year. The Western world knows all this and just ignores it, because it isn't convenient to their preferred narrative.
Of course there is going to be no protests as long as the West props up Hamas to terrorize everyone, as it has been doing the last 20 years.
There were large protests before October 7. They weren't common for the reasons you stated, but they happened:
Several happened after October 7 as well, although on a smaller scale.
Hamas brutally tortures and kills anyone that criticizes them,
right just like they throw all teh gays off buildings. its amazing the cartoonish stuff people believe.
Show me some info on it.
The IDF certainly doesn't have a well-documented history of torturing the **** out of people.
Found one of the ones I was looking for:
Here's an article that is related to the topic, also has an article inside on overall anger towards Hamas in Gaza:
Cool, thanks for the link. Ya, inside your articles there's people also saying the 10/7 attack was "honorable". Others said they were upset because Iran and Hezbollah didn't join the attack. Doesn't sound like there's many widespread protests on the whole.
And yes, it's of course difficult to protest, because you're living under a repressive regime.
BGP just posted a study that said Hamas had 22% of support in recent years. you think there wasnt criticism? surely if they were torturing and murdering to the extent that you guys claim then there would be at least some evidence given their low support. an article. a link. instead its just bullshit from you guys.
how many people were tortured and murdered from that protest BGP linked? weird how they showed their faces and did a protest that was critical of Hamas.
look, I wouldnt want to have beef with Hamas in Gaza. I would imagine it could have severe repercussions. but I this cartoonish evil stuff just doesnt track with whats been presented (which is nothing except trust me bro).
BGP just posted a study that said Hamas had 22% of support in recent years. you think there wasnt criticism? surely if they were torturing and murdering to the extent that you guys claim then there would be at least some evidence given their low support. an article. a link. instead its just bullshit from you guys.
the pro palestine HRW that you used as a source recently, in 2018
In the 25 years since Palestinians gained a degree of self-rule over the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, their authorities have established machineries of repression to crush dissent, including through the use of torture.
Both the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority (PA) in the West Bank and the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas) in Gaza have in recent years carried out scores of arbitrary arrests for peaceful criticism of the authorities, particularly on social media, among independent journalists, on university campuses, and at demonstrations. As the Fatah-Hamas feud deepened despite attempts at reconciliation, PA security services have targeted supporters of Hamas and vice versa. Relying primarily on overly broad laws that criminalize activity such as causing “sectarian strife” or insulting “higher authorities,” the PA and Hamas use detention to punish critics and deter them and others from further activism. In detention, security forces routinely taunt, threaten, beat, and force detainees into painful stress positions for hours at a time.
This report is the result of a two-year investigation by Human Rights Watch into patterns of arrest and detention conditions. It draws on 86 cases in the West Bank and Gaza, which show that Palestinian authorities routinely arrest people whose peaceful speech displeases them and torture those in their custody. These findings emerge from interviews with 147 persons, most of them ex-detainees, but also family members, lawyers, NGO representatives, and a doctor; and a review of photographic and video evidence, medical reports, and court documents.
I know. There's no records of Hamas torturing or killing Gazans for less than protesting or doing the same to those who helped Israel try and free them from the tyranny that is Hamas.
In reality Hamas is not an oppressive regime and life in Gaza is wonderful under them.
the pro palestine HRW that you used as a source recently, in 2018
https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/10/23/tw...
In the 25 years since Palestinians gained a degree of self-rule over the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, their authorities have established machineries of repression to crush dissent, including through the use of torture.
Both the Fatah-dominated Palestinian Authority (PA) in the West Bank and the Islamic Resistance Movement (H
He's just going to deny this.
BGP just posted a study that said Hamas had 22% of support in recent years. you think there wasnt criticism? surely if they were torturing and murdering to the extent that you guys claim then there would be at least some evidence given their low support. an article. a link. instead its just bullshit from you guys.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2...
There's a lot of links if you google.
I just want to get clear here. So you believe that Hamas and Palestinians are peace loving people, in general. And that they are oppressed and occupied by Israel, and that if they only got, whatever they believe is their land back, they would just live in peace w/ their Israeli neighbors?
Is that correct?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2...
https://www.newsweek.com/hamas-tortured-...
https://unwatch.org/rights-group-exposes...
There's a lot of links if you google.
I just want to get clear here. So you believe that Hamas and Palestinians are peace loving people, in general. And that they are oppressed an
Victor, I'd recommend reading and watching this:
