Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.
3. Graphic Images need to be in spoilers with a trigger warning.
4. Wishing Harm on other posters will result in an immediate timeout.
5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
bruv, I dont think we want to get into a whole "the holy book says..." discussion considering all of the absolutely murderous insane stuff in all of the Christian and Jewish books. ffs Israel is constantly referring to Amalek in this whole thing.
The biggest problem isn't what Holy Books say per se (although I do think it is part of the problem).
But the reality is post Iranian revolution and Arab Spring that Israel and the entire Western world is more secular than EVERY Muslim nation (with the possible exceptions of Albania and Iran). The problem is that religious extremism and literalism is more or less a mainstream position in most of the Ummah. Ben Gvir and his extreme right followers are equivalent to mainstream society in much of the Ummah. The Overton window is so tilted in a very bad direction.
If you want to blame a reaction to US imperialism for this (like Microbet does) then go ahead. But the fact we cant even acknowledge what we are dealing with and why the problem is so intractable is a big part of the problem IMO.
many people don't realize that in most Muslim majority countries (as per map I provided recently), a majority wants Sharia law, and that sharia law equivalent in Judaism would be a legal mandate to live as the Haredi do, for the whole population.
so given most Haredi don't even want to mandate their lifestyle by law to everyone, it's fair to claim that most Muslim majority countries are far more radical (religiously) than the most radical groups in Israel are.
Cutting through all the disinformation and gaslighting (most from the Western press) I think a few weeks ago the deal that was on the table was that IF Israel completely left Gaza permanently, there would be an exchange of Palestinian prisoners for around 13 live hostages. And there was nothing on the table for anything more than this.
But Netanyahu and his coalition decided this was not enough. Netanyahu and his coalition view the biggest existential threat to Israel being the IRI and its entire axis (including Hamas) coordinating in a massive rocket attack to overwhelm Iron Dome. And with the current status quo one player (Hamas) is pretty much taken off the table. Even if they can completely rebuild to be neighborhood bullies, as long as Israel controls all the corridors in and out of Gaza, Hamas will not be able to rebuild the war machine. And to Netanyahu this is worth more than 13 Israeli lives.
Now I am guessing most of the 13 live hostages that were on the table have been executed, and there is no hostage deal to be had. It is now just a matter of whether Israel will buckle to pressure to leave Gaza and let Hamas rebuild the war machine, or stay and risk further international isolation by staying.
It’s like the third time you said there’s no hostage deal to be had.
Maybe I’m not up to date but isn’t there like 100 hostages left?
Edit: wanted to add that the Islam/Muslim debate is quite amusing.
It’s like the third time you said there’s no hostage deal to be had.
Maybe I’m not up to date but isn’t there like 100 hostages left?
Edit: wanted to add that the Islam/Muslim debate is quite amusing.
--How many of these 100 hostages are alive? Are any of them on the table?
Hamas has not participated in hostage talks for weeks. The West just keeps insisting Israel show up to Kabuki theatre talks Hamas isn't even involved in, and then fake outrage is manufactured Israel isn't giving up enough in the fake talks.
We have no clue what Hamas is willing to offer at this point, if anything.
Reading through the tea leaves and gaslighting, at one point I think 13 live hostages were on the table if Israel agreed to Hamas maximalist demands. Now most of those hostages have been executed and I have no clue, but I speculate nothing is currently on the table.
It’s like the third time you said there’s no hostage deal to be had.
Maybe I’m not up to date but isn’t there like 100 hostages left?
Edit: wanted to add that the Islam/Muslim debate is quite amusing.
if there were hostages they had control upon, they would produce some proof, which is quite feasible without giving up the location.
the most sensible explanation is that there are a few alive here and there but Hamas has lost all control of ground troops. it might very well be the case that some of the leaders partying using western money in Qatar would be willing to release the hostages for "reasonable" offers, but the people hiding in the tunnels and holding them wouldn't.
btw and to be clear, if Israel had credible proof no hostages are left, they still shouldn't leave, but rather ramp up the attacks on Gaza as the only rationale to be careful (avoiding accidentally killing hostages) wouldn't exist anymore
--How many of these 100 hostages are alive? Are any of them on the table?
Hamas has not participated in hostage talks for weeks. The West just keeps insisting Israel show up to Kabuki theatre talks Hamas isn't even involved in, and then fake outrage is manufactured Israel isn't giving up enough in the fake talks.
We have no clue what Hamas is willing to offer at this point, if anything.
Reading through the tea leaves and gaslighting, at one point I think 13 live hostages were on the table if Is
I don’t know how many are alive it’s very possible none are. I just don’t get this never ending mention of “no hostage deal”. The reason so many people were demonstrating was for the remaining hostages to be brought home through a deal.
They can’t negotiate with Hamas(for obvious reasons) so they try to pressure their government into reaching a deal that brings their loved ones home.
Not weird for Israeli’s to want their people to come home as long as there’s no confirmation they are dead.
--How many of these 100 hostages are alive? Are any of them on the table?
Hamas has not participated in hostage talks for weeks. The West just keeps insisting Israel show up to Kabuki theatre talks Hamas isn't even involved in, and then fake outrage is manufactured Israel isn't giving up enough in the fake talks.
We have no clue what Hamas is willing to offer at this point, if anything.
Reading through the tea leaves and gaslighting, at one point I think 13 live hostages were on the table if Is
Hamas agreed to the USA presented deal from like June. That is their position. You can look up the details yourself bc there's simply too much misinformation in your posts to bother refuting.
if there were hostages they had control upon, they would produce some proof, which is quite feasible without giving up the location.
the most sensible explanation is that there are a few alive here and there but Hamas has lost all control of ground troops. it might very well be the case that some of the leaders partying using western money in Qatar would be willing to release the hostages for "reasonable" offers, but the people hiding in the tunnels and holding them wouldn't.
btw and to be clear,
Obviously don’t agree with the last paragraph but it just reads like Dunyain is claiming no hostages are left.
This is false. If the claim is that Hamas is unwilling then yes. I obviously agree with that statement.
Obviously don’t agree with the last paragraph but it just reads like Dunyain is claiming no hostages are left.
This is false. If the claim is that Hamas is unwilling then yes. I obviously agree with that statement.
I claim an in-between as you can read. it's not obvious that Hamas is still a coherent monolith of a group at this point.
people on the ground might even have problems communicating with those in Qatar
Complete fantasy land in this thread
Obviously don’t agree with the last paragraph but it just reads like Dunyain is claiming no hostages are left.
This is false. If the claim is that Hamas is unwilling then yes. I obviously agree with that statement.
You mean it is your belief this is false. We are both speculating, as neither of us is privy to any information on this matter (where the withholding of such information is a war crime on Hamas part)
I don’t know how many are alive it’s very possible none are. I just don’t get this never ending mention of “no hostage deal”. The reason so many people were demonstrating was for the remaining hostages to be brought home through a deal.
They can’t negotiate with Hamas(for obvious reasons) so they try to pressure their government into reaching a deal that brings their loved ones home.
Not weird for Israeli’s to want their people to come home as long as there’s no confirmation they are dead.
Your framing suggests a belief on your part Hamas today (Aug 2nd) is willing and able to make a deal to return live Israeli hostages, and Israel isn't willing. There is no evidence this is true at all.
Your framing suggests a belief on your part Hamas today (Aug 2nd) is willing and able to make a deal to return live Israeli hostages, and Israel isn't willing. There is no evidence this is true at all.
its funny bc 100s of thousands of Israelis are demonstrating under this assumption. and just about the whole country went on strike with demands predicated on it.
maybe you should let them know that they are wrong.
yes it would be the first time masses on the left believe something wrong
Cutting through all the disinformation and gaslighting (most from the Western press) I think a few weeks ago the deal that was on the table was that IF Israel completely left Gaza permanently, there would be an exchange of Palestinian prisoners for around 13 live hostages. And there was nothing on the table for anything more than this.
But Netanyahu and his coalition decided this was not enough. Netanyahu and his coalition view the biggest existential threat to Israel being the IRI and its en
Recovering hostages has always been secondary to Israel. Wasn't that made more than crystal clear when they killed one of the chief negotiators?
I can only guess their #1 goal is to make sure no hostages are taken in the future, at least from Gaza.
Recovering hostages has always been secondary to Israel. Wasn't that made more than crystal clear when they killed one of the chief negotiators?
I can only guess their #1 goal is to make sure no hostages are taken in the future, at least from Gaza.
Well, I think it just as important to make sure if/when war with the IRI breaks out Hamas cant throw in 20,000 rockets attacking from Gaza. But the 2 goals are obviously not mutually exclusive.
its funny bc 100s of thousands of Israelis are demonstrating under this assumption. and just about the whole country went on strike with demands predicated on it.
maybe you should let them know that they are wrong.
These people are all Zionists. Seems you would be the last person to give Zionists the benefit of the doubt as far as being on the correct side of any position.
Your framing suggests a belief on your part Hamas today (Aug 2nd) is willing and able to make a deal to return live Israeli hostages, and Israel isn't willing. There is no evidence this is true at all.
I literally said if the claim is that Hamas isn’t willing. I agree.
You then say I belief Hamas is willing to? Are you blind?
Recovering hostages has always been secondary to Israel. Wasn't that made more than crystal clear when they killed one of the chief negotiators?
I can only guess their #1 goal is to make sure no hostages are taken in the future, at least from Gaza.
netanyahu has said it was close
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu recounts speaking to the families of some of the six hostages who were murdered by Hamas in Gaza last week and asking for their forgiveness.
“I told the families, and I repeat it here tonight — I ask for your forgiveness that we did not succeed in bringing them back alive.”
“We were close, but we didn’t succeed,” he says, during a press conference in Jerusalem.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_e...
maybe not killing their negotiator would have made it closer.
In his first public address since Sunday’s mass protests showed many Israelis’ furious response to the discovery of six more dead hostages, Netanyahu said he will continue to insist on a demand that has emerged as a major sticking point in talks — continued Israeli control of the Philadelphi corridor, a narrow band along Gaza’s border with Egypt where Israel contends Hamas smuggles weapons into Gaza. Egypt and Hamas deny it.
Netanyahu called the corridor vital to ensuring Hamas cannot rearm via tunnels. “This is the oxygen of Hamas,” he said.
And he added: “No one is more committed to freeing the hostages than me. ... No one will preach to me on this issue.’
(Hard to believe these weren't the instructions since the start)
A message on behalf of the headquarters of the families for the return of the abductees in response to Netanyahu's speech:
A speech full of lies and spins.
The Prime Minister chose the legacy of abandonment instead of saving lives and returning the abducted.
Prime Minister Netanyahu proved tonight that he does not intend to return the abductees.
This is the true meaning of his words through all the lies and spins we heard tonight. The people of Israel, most of whom support the return of the abductees, will no longer lend a hand to this criminal negligence. The struggle for the return of the abductees will be intensified and intensified until the last of the abductees returns home - the living for rehabilitation and the murdered and the dead for a proper burial.
President Biden was asked about Netanyahu's words this evening regarding the Philadelphia axis and replied: "We are still conducting negotiations (on the final proposal for the hostage deal, BR). I'm not negotiating with him (with Netanyahu, BR) but with my counterparts in Egypt and Qatar."
(Hard to believe these weren't the instructions since the start)
lol
Meh. Fake news.
Western media and western elites have floated various proposals. But it is all just empty, and no one has any serious, workable day after ideas with the current incentive structures. At the end of the day, under the current incentive structures the Palestinian people are pretty content receiving their aid and using it to pursue Jihad. And they have no interest in any outside powers intervening to govern them.
As long as the unconditional Western aid keeps pouring in, along wi
So in your mind the fake news aspect is not that the news itself is fake (because it's clearly there as you mention), but fake means means that your opinion that the news is empty makes it fake?
What are the current incentive structures exactly?
We just spent a day discussing approval of Hamas before the war, and the overall trend was that this approval was falling, and got as low as 22% right before Oct 7. Meanwhile before Oct 7 we discovered that there were protests in an environment where "Of course there is going to be no protests" because it would result in the protestors being "brutally tortured and killed". Risking because "brutally tortured and killed" is not something most perfectly content people will do.
No one is suggesting unconditional aid (which is fake news) and Iranian arms be allowed into Gaza, but even if this situation existed, Israel would still be better off pulling out of Gaza and focusing solely on the its defenses than what it is doing now.
Unrelated:
