Israel/Palestine thread

I do not see how Israel taking land from Lebanon helps them in any way, especially if they plan to annex it.

Isn’t the best course of action for them to capture some land and then give it back to them in exchange for peace?

I don’t see why they would want to annex more land either, it’s not going to be a deterrent at all. Occupation of Gaza, I can see that, although I would hope it would not be the Netanyahu government doing the occupation seeing as how incompetent they have been, basically being responsible for this war.

It's harder to throw short range rockets if you have to throw them from further away.

And a permanent scar on society because of the rockets is a signal about stopping to mess with them.

Israel wants the Lebanese population to revolt against Hezbollah.

It's like cutting the hand of a thief caught stealing. Supposedly they will be disincentivized from stealing again, and anyway if they try it's harder for them to do.

If the strike campaigns are as successful as Israel is making them out to be, then taking any land is unnecessary. Israel is claiming that they are severely degrading Hezbollah's strike capabilities.

Occupying land in Lebanon opens its own can of worms, annexing that land is even more difficult and involves far more problems.

As far as the political reasons, and getting the population to revolt against Hezbollah, taking land does the exact opposite. In 1982 when the PLO brought Israeli retaliations, Lebanon was furious with them. When Israel outright invaded it united the entire country against Israel. Same thing happened in 2006.

Israel invading Lebanon would be acknowledgment that their strike campaign failed.

That's literally the argument you guys have been making

BGP the iron dome works today, but you can't gamble your citizens life on that, and on your opponent never learning how to overcome that.

Israel can take land and credibly promise to Lebanon the land will be given back to the country when they get rid in full of all Islamic terrorists.

I agree that annexing (if with that you mean putting Israelis to live there) would be a mistake

It’s probably not something Israel wants to do if it can be avoided, but at a certain point they need to make a decision between suboptimal paths. There’s basically never going to be a clear best option when you’re dealing with irrational actors. It’s impossible to predict no matter how much intel gathering and analysis you conduct. If Hez were rational actors, they probably would have given up already or agreed to a temporary ceasefire but that’s obviously not the case.

Who says I'm gambling any lives on that? Israel is claiming they can take care of the short range rockets through their strike campaign. If that is the case then entering Lebanon to take care of Hezbollah's short range rockets is redundant and likely sets Israel back against Hezbollah.

Hezbollah's reputation is at a low point in Lebanon, Israel does not want to galvanize the country against them.

I think Hezbollah leadership is more rational than Hamas on the ground (ie in Gaza) leadership, but they got paged so now I am not sure anymore.

Hez is getting paid big time by Iran to send rockets to Israel. It's rational for them to do so more than we can assess without taking that money into account

It's helps Bibi maintain the constant war footing he needs to stay in power. Plus, it's valuable land once they clear out the locals.

Not my argument, no. I have been very clear that targeting civilians is not ok. Civilian casualties are an inevitable part of war and people acting like it’s not are either insane, stupid, or disingenuous.

There is no valuable land in the whole area.

"Prime land" in the area is worth less than random empty spots in Sicily

I agree with the first part.

Mostly agreed, however I mean rational in that they can be relied upon to have some consideration for the well-being of the Lebanese people at the expense of any monetary incentives. Obviously, western countries do shitty things for the sake of money all the time, but plunging your citizens into a war you openly admit you cannot win is an extreme case.

Hez definitely seems more rational than Hamas but inevitably they’re answering to radical Islamists.

So all those that have approved of Israel's actions in Gaza and civilian death being acceptable because of October 7th , what are the thoughts of civilian casualties in regards to lebanon?

justified as well?

hezbollah had 0 right to touch Israel. Once they did, Israel has full rights to do absolutely anything to guarantee they can never do it again. Not complicated at all

Surely.

What is your opinion and how did you form it?

Name a single country that would allow another country to launch rockets at them indiscriminately without retaliation. Hezbollah has the moral culpability for every single civilian death.

how many Israeli civilians have been killed by these hesbollah rockets?

Answer my question first. Can you name a single country that would allow another country to fire rockets indiscriminately into them? We both know you can’t name a single country, all you can do is point to how incompetent Hezbollah is as a defense.

How do you know the Hezbollah rocket fire is indiscriminate?

But under international law, you are expected to avoid civilian casualties even in retaliation.

And note that your scenario can easily be turned around. The latest exchange was prompted by Israel targeting Hez leaders. So Lebanon, by your analysis, has the right to retaliate, even with extensive collateral damage.

Notice how you don’t want to answer the question and are trying to go off into something else. It’s really a very simple question.

Actually you’re right, even discriminate rocket fire would be met with retaliation for the most part, but let’s keep it to the original question.

Also you have the timeline wrong. Hamas attacked Israel on Oct 7th, Hezbollah joined in the next day and have not stopped since. Every day of rockets is an escalation by Hezbollah since they decided to join the war for seemingly no reason. I’m sure the civilian population or Lebanon, half of whom probably already hated Hezbollah, appreciates that

Hezbollah is responsible for everything happening right now. They did not need to join Hamas in attacking Israel and they’ve had a year to stop or adequately prepare for the consequences of their actions. Doesn’t really matter how much you turn it around in your head.

Israel is clearly making an effort to avoid civilian casualties. Their beeper/walkie talkie operation will be studied for years due to its combination of effect and lack of collateral damage.

The death toll from the most recent Israeli attacks has hit 500 including 35 children.

If Hezbollah had produced that death toll in Israel, you would say those were indiscriminate attacks.

And there's always a further back attack to justify the current retaliation. But the most recent escalation was by Israel.

I’m not basing my opinions solely on which number is bigger. Seems like very simplistic and childish way of viewing things.

Indiscriminate attacks have nothing to do with the death toll. You seem confused.

I’m not really sure what kind of collateral damage numbers would be acceptable for the dismantling of a terrorist org which has been fortifying for 20 years and is widely considered the most advanced non-state military in the world.

Maybe you can give us a number?