Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
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Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
I'm not convinced Israel wants Hizbollah, basically a real state actor now, to be so weakened as to initiate a civil war between Lebanese army and Hizbollah.
They had the chance to do so before and elected not to. I think the stated goal of restoring deterrence is real.
and ofc its not a surprise that respected accounts that Dun follows are now advocating war on Syria
but its not like weapons are flowing through these openings. they have their own secret routes for that. bombing the crossing and occupying the mountains wont stop the flow of weapons. it will just kill more civilians and cause more suffering. which is ofc the point.
I'm not convinced Israel wants Hizbollah, basically a real state actor now, to be so weakened as to initiate a civil war between Lebanese army and Hizbollah.
They had the chance to do so before and elected not to. I think the stated goal of restoring deterrence is real.
I dont think Israel has any ambitions wrt Lebanon. But what is completely unacceptable (and should be) is Lebanon/Hezbollah using threat of force, and in this case following through on that threat, to influence Israeli internal politics and foreign policy.
In this case Hezbollah/IRI decided to use military attacks and threats of further escalation to influence Israeli's reaction to 10/7; which is not acceptable. And if Hezbollah/IRI insist on going this route; they have to accept that Israel should and will respond to neutralize them.
I dont think Israel has any ambitions wrt Lebanon. But what is completely unacceptable (and should be) is Lebanon/Hezbollah using threat of force, and in this case following through on that threat, to influence Israeli internal politics and foreign policy.
In this case Hezbollah/IRI decided to use military attacks and threats of further escalation to influence Israeli's reaction to 10/7; which is not acceptable. And if Hezbollah/IRI insist on going this route; they have to accept that Israel sh
On what basis do you find this not acceptable? This is a serious question and not a wind up. How is this any different than the U.S. moving more military assets to the area as deterrence against Israel’s foes?
Israel Deliberately Blocked Humanitarian...
But it's not genocide.
It’s a genocide where the accused genocider tracks aid for accountability and the accusation of a starvation campaign has been looked into and the conclusion has been by the UN that there is no starvation campaign.
https://gaza-aid-data.gov.il/main/#Highl...
People want to take salacious stories and turn them into the entire war effort.
^^^ These were US government reports. Your link does not deny them.
Is this pic accurate?
My link shows you the amount of aid that has gone through Gaza by month. Furthermore, do you realize that the report being heavily relied upon by the article was from April, which was before the UN findings in June that assessed no systemic starvation campaign and could not attribute the requisite factors for assessing even a famine?
We get it, people need aid. And that’s what Israel is providing.
Israel Deliberately Blocked Humanitarian...
But it's not genocide.
Did you even read the article you linked?
It is sort of long so no shame if you didn’t.
Seems a bit dishonest to link an article that mentions genocide 0 times, and then proclaim that the article supports your notion that Israel is committing genocide.
It was nice of them to include a single sentence acknowledging that Hamas has, “played a role in the humanitarian crisis.” Obviously only Israel is to blame though.
My link shows you the amount of aid that has gone through Gaza by month. Furthermore, do you realize that the report being heavily relied upon by the article was from April, which was before the UN findings in June that assessed no systemic starvation campaign and could not attribute the requisite factors for assessing even a famine?
We get it, people need aid. And that’s what Israel is providing.
where is this UN report?
Following the publication of the second FRC report on 18 March 2024, which projected that a Famine would occur in the most likely scenario, a number of important developments occurred. In contrast with the assumptions made for the projection period (March – July 2024), the amount of food and non-food commodities allowed into the northern governorates increased. Additionally, the response in the nutrition, water sanitation and hygiene (WASH) and health sectors was scaled up. In this context, the available evidence does not indicate that Famine is currently occurring.
However, the situation in Gaza remains catastrophic and there is a high and sustained risk of Famine across the whole Gaza Strip. It is important to note that the probable improvement in nutrition status noted in April and May should not allow room for complacency about the risk of Famine in the coming weeks and months. The prolonged nature of the crisis means that this risk remains at least as high as at any time during the past few months.
The FRC encourages all stakeholders who use the IPC for high-level decision-making to understand that whether a Famine classification is confirmed or not does not in any manner change the fact that extreme human suffering is without a doubt currently ongoing in the Gaza Strip, and does not change the immediate humanitarian imperative to address this civilian suffering by enabling complete, safe, unhindered, and sustained humanitarian access into and throughout the Gaza Strip, including through ceasing hostilities. All actors should not wait until a Famine classification is made to act accordingly.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/ipc-...
And you know that the UN hates Israel so they have to couch it in “oh there’s a risk of a famine”. No famine found and obviously no systemic starvation campaign, as was alleged since pretty much the first month of the war.
Hamas tried to just give some hostages back and Israel didnt want them.
Why is it so important to people on both sides of the argument whether the killer of a large group of innocent people is doing it because it makes a task easier rather than actually desiring that they be dead?
Hamas tried to just give some hostages back and Israel didnt want them.
No, Hamas told her that they had offered to give her back and that Israel refused. That’s what is being reported there. Of course Hamas would never lie about anything.
Why is it so important to people on both sides of the argument whether the killer of a large group of innocent people is doing it because it makes a task easier rather than actually desiring that they be dead?
Because state of mind is important to criminal law, including international law? Also again what exactly is the implication, that Israel should allow terrorism because Hamas hides behind its own population? What a horrible precedent to set.
Intentions matter hugely. Both in law and morality
It matters here because it changes the reasonable/justified response. That's why the propoganda is always to paint the other sides intentions as badly as possible.
Hamas tried to just give some hostages back and Israel didnt want them.
Ah, a new narrative? So Hamas has been trying to give the hostages back this entire time but the evil Israelis won’t take them! What a development.
Soon we’ll be told that the remaining hostages actually want to stay in Gaza and Israel is evil for trying to force them back into the apartheid evil white empire.
Seems a bit dishonest to link an article that mentions genocide 0 times, and then proclaim that the article supports your notion that Israel is committing genocide.
The US government report proves food is being withheld. This is part of the proof of genocidal intent, along with:
- Numerous genocidal statements by Israeli cabinet members and generals
The dynamiting of ALL universities, most of the schools, mosques, churches, civic buildings, offices, homes, boats, etc.
The very high civilian toll. It's at 5% of the population and climbing IIRC.
The extermination of the press
The plans to ethnically cleanse and annex northern Gaza
They are clearly destroying Gaza's ability to function as a society. That's genocide.
All of the above has been cited at length upstream.
I know Gazans aren't bbq'ing lamb kebabs every night but is there much better propaganda against Israel than showing a bunch of starving people on the verge of death? Twitter feeds would be littered with these images.
For sure Israel has halted aid coming in but there is not mass starvation causing death in Gaza.
Ah, a new narrative? So Hamas has been trying to give the hostages back this entire time but the evil Israelis won’t take them! What a development.
Soon we’ll be told that the remaining hostages actually want to stay in Gaza and Israel is evil for trying to force them back into the apartheid evil white empire.
its not a new narrative. Hamas has maintained this since Oct. its just yet another thing proven true.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/ipc-...
And you know that the UN hates Israel so they have to couch it in “oh there’s a risk of a famine”. No famine found and obviously no systemic starvation campaign, as was alleged since pretty much the first month of the war.
This doesn’t contradict the point of the article which is that before this time the relevant U.S. agencies determined that Israel was blocking aid and U.S. officials did not stop delivering weapons as they were supposed to by law.
its not a new narrative. Hamas has maintained this since Oct. its just yet another thing proven true.
Lol proven true. You’re priceless.
Hamas could just release the hostages, that’s entirely on them.
Maybe what you’re trying to say is Israel refused to meet Hamas demands that precede them releasing any hostages.
This doesn’t contradict the point of the article which is that before this time the relevant U.S. agencies determined that Israel was blocking aid and U.S. officials did not stop delivering weapons as they were supposed to by law.
If you’re talking about the article that Bill Haywood linked, the relevant US agency seems to be the State Department, which concluded that Israel was not blocking aid.
I know Gazans aren't bbq'ing lamb kebabs every night but is there much better propaganda against Israel than showing a bunch of starving people on the verge of death? Twitter feeds would be littered with these images.
For sure Israel has halted aid coming in but there is not mass starvation causing death in Gaza.
Pretty much every source is showing a serious degree of food insecurity and illness. But we are also talking about 100ks of people with no end in sight.
Israel has basically announced that they are going to take out Hez and that is going to add a whole nother layer of chaos for a bunch of Lebanese in an already poverty stricken country.
The US government report proves food is being withheld. This is part of the proof of genocidal intent, along with:
- Numerous genocidal statements by Israeli cabinet members and generals
The dynamiting of ALL universities, most of the schools, mosques, churches, civic buildings, offices, homes, boats, etc.
The very high civilian toll. It's at 5% of the population and climbing IIRC.
The extermination of the press
The plans to ethnically cleanse and annex northern Gaza
They are clearly destroying Gaza's ability to function as a society. That's genocide.
All of the above has been cited at length upstream.
This has all been addressed and debunked. If Israel was trying to conduct genocide, they wouldn’t have offered the Palestinians peace and land multiple times. The Palestinians have no one to blame but their leadership.
