Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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So if Israel dropped a nuclear bomb on Gaza this would be justified under the banner of retaliation?
I think obviously this is either hyperbole or an insane statement. I’m curious how you’re going to walk this back.
If using nuclear bombs didn't create safety risks for nearby places (which include israel itself) they would have done it already
If using nuclear bombs didn't create safety risks for nearby places (which include israel itself) they would have done it already
Yeah this just doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t see why without a military objective and taking what it would take to achieve those objectives we should just infinitely justify anything that goes on in war. This type of attitude you have about having absolutely no moral standards when it comes to military conflict is wrong both morally and instrumentally. Letting people evaluate up to the most extreme level of retaliation is just going to lead to bad outcomes and bad principles.
The diplomatic consequences of nuclear first use would be dire. Not even the US could condone it.
Why even just worry about diplomatic consequences? We should also be worried about the fact that nukes just aren’t targeted enough to be a good weapon of war.
Six hours at hands of Hamas - new accounts reveal how Israeli base fell on 7 October
This is the closest we have to an official account by Israel’s military of what happened on the day.
In an attempt to further piece together events, we have also spoken to survivors, seen messages from those who died, and listened to voice recordings reporting the attack as it happened, helping to build a picture of the speed and ferocity of the invasion
The diplomatic consequences of nuclear first use would be dire. Not even the US could condone it.
Bet
Why even just worry about diplomatic consequences? We should also be worried about the fact that nukes just aren’t targeted enough to be a good weapon of war.
85 2k pound bombs are more targeted?
Yeah this just doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t see why without a military objective and taking what it would take to achieve those objectives we should just infinitely justify anything that goes on in war. This type of attitude you have about having absolutely no moral standards when it comes to military conflict is wrong both morally and instrumentally. Letting people evaluate up to the most extreme level of retaliation is just going to lead to bad outcomes and bad principles.
If the military objective is a tunnel system underneath an area, the whole area is a fully legitimate military target.
I have moral standards, it would be deeply immoral not to do absolutely everything you can at any cost to fully eradicate an enemy like that.
Any proposal that doesn't have that as the only goal is an immoral proposal
If the military objective is a tunnel system underneath an area, the whole area is a fully legitimate military target.
I have moral standards, it would be deeply immoral not to do absolutely everything you can at any cost to fully eradicate an enemy like that.
Any proposal that doesn't have that as the only goal is an immoral proposal
Not if the tunnel is of little strategic importance and there happens to be a market or apartment building above.
Are you referring to the bombing that killed a bunch of Hezbollah leaders? I’d say that was sufficiently targeted, yes.
well ya, I know you are. I am just unsure why you wouldnt be just as satisfied with a nuclear bomb there so long as it was asserted by the IDF to take out a "leader".
well ya, I know you are. I am just unsure why you wouldnt be just as satisfied with a nuclear bomb there so long as it was asserted by the IDF to take out a "leader".
Because the munitions used was appropriate for the military task they were attempting to accomplish. This was done based on credible information, and it demonstrates that Hez really used underground facilities cloaked by civilian apartment complexes.
Here’s a hint: you won’t find a single Western base underneath a civilian apartment complex.
they used 85 bombs that were the TNT equivalent of like 5 Hiroshimas. hell a nuke would have been less damaging!
and yes the **** you will find military installations near if not under civilian apartments. the Western press just had a meltdown about it during the Iran attack. it was comical to say the least.
Little strategic importance as in "they are the main way the terrorists finance themselves with smuggling, and without them no 10 7 would ever have happened"?
It’s really not hard to think of scenarios where the bomb dropped on the market is not okay just because there’s a tunnel under there.
Maybe they were drinking coffee. Everyone knows terrorists drink coffee.
they used 85 bombs that were the TNT equivalent of like 5 Hiroshimas. hell a nuke would have been less damaging!
and yes the **** you will find military installations near if not under civilian apartments. the Western press just had a meltdown about it during the Iran attack. it was comical to say the least.
What was the concentration of the damage? The amount of force doesn’t matter as much when we’re talking about concentration. Something can be more powerful but also more targeted.
Please enlighten me as to which military installations in the West are located underneath apartments?
It’s fair to attack military bases in the context of a just war, so if there are civilians on base and they get attacked then that is what it is.
In this situation you have to weigh the death of civilians against the military benefit, which in this situation was quite substantial.
There's a military depot about 700' from my house in SoCal.
here ya go budday
and really, according to the rules set out by the West, any building that Bibi or Biden set foot in is automatically a "military bunker" and I guess subject to a massive bombardment.
oh look just found another one
]
here ya go budday
and really, according to the rules set out by the West, any building that Bibi or Biden set foot in is automatically a "military bunker" and I guess subject to a massive bombardment.
oh look just found another one
[/QUOTE]
There’s a difference between having an underground headquarters underneath a military building and having it below an apartment complex… Like it’s seriously not hard to understand.
Idk why you guys keep obfuscating to irrelevant stuff.
you are the one obfuscating. as they saying goes...
Israel and the USA used 85 bunker buster bombs in a dense civilian area. consistency would dictate that is ok to bomb any place that Bibi is, or the "heart of Tel Aviv". after all, Bibi is the one who the ICC prosecution filed a warrant for, and Bibi is the leader of a country on trial for genocide at the ICJ. Nasrallah and Hezbollah were none of those things. so if anything, more force should be allowed!
that would be a consistent reading. there is another consistent reading and that is the idea that Westerners should be immune to any violence while being allowed to inflict infinite violence on others. its called White Supremacy and its a very popular thing in the West.
If they were on the morally just side of the war they would be justified in doing that, but they’re not. Also Hez definitely would do that if they could, given their indiscriminate military campaign.
I have said many times I think military targets are military targets, regardless of their proximity to civilians. We shouldn’t target civilians but we also shouldn’t reward human shields.
Hezbollah has exclusively targeted military installations. why do you keep repeating easily refuted falsehoods?
and I get that Western liberalism compels people to always side with "White people" and their allies, but I think morally the side opposing "plausible genocide" is in the right.
anyway, you got close enough to admit that it doesnt matter what Hezbollah does it will always be acceptable to kill hundreds of innocent civilians and doctors and paramedics and old people and UN workers and journalists and farmers and on and on and it is never acceptable for them to fight back at the exact mechanisms killing them.
you can construct a facade any way you want about why this is the Western mentality. but myself, a person that actually reads books (I could recommend some!) understands the actual reason why to some extent. the poor schmucks who have spent their entire lifes under apartheid, murder, incarceration, theft, and now plausible genocide understand far better than me however.
lots of insane things the last few days like always. no one cares bc go Dems. but one interesting thing is that Hezbollah does not have the same reservations about hitting medical helicopters as Hamas does. Hamas most moral army in the world!
Four days into the job and the replacement for Nasralla has already been eliminated. Sinwar is rumored to be dead as well. This can't be going any worse for both Hamas and Hezbollah.
