Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
These are our baselines. We're not reinventing the wheel here. If you aren't sure if something is acceptable to post, its better to ask first. If you think someone is posting something that violates the above guidelines, please report it or PM me rather than responding in kind.
To reiterate some of the points:
1. No personal attacks. This is a broad instruction, but, in general, we want to focus on attacking an argument rather than the poster making it. It is fine to say a post is antisemitic; it is not okay to call someone an antisemite over and over. If you believe someone is making antisemitic posts, report them or PM me. The same goes for calling people "baby killers" and "genocide lovers". You are allowed to argue that an action supports genocide or that the consequences of certain policies results in the death of children, but we are no longer going to be speaking to one another's intentions. It is not productive to the conversation and doesn't further any debate.
2. Racist posts and other bigoted statements that target a particular group or individuals of such groups with derogatory comments are not allowed. This should not need further explanation.
3. Graphic Images need to be in spoilers with a trigger warning.
4. Wishing Harm on other posters will result in an immediate timeout.
5. Genocidal statements such as "Kill 'em all" etc, are no longer permissible in the thread.
If anyone has any questions about the above, please PM me. I don't want a discussion about the rules to derail the content of this thread. If anything needs clarifying, I will do that in this thread.
Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
Which "vast majority of the international community" do you refer to? most relevant countries completely disregard "international law" when it doesn't suit them.
The lion’s share of the UN but I agree that basically all parties trot out morality and rules based order arguments only when it suits them and the world is worse off for it.
Have you ever talked to someone from Iran? If no, you should try it one day. Very unlikely they will agree with anything you believe.
Nonsense. I doubt you know any Iranian under 50. I have friends who can’t go back because of their participation in protests against the regime while living abroad. Guess what, they also think the U.S. and Israel are no allies to the Iranian people.
I do admit, every time I start to wonder whether you actually believe the nonsense you have been posting the last year, you say something so absurd that I come back to the conclusion this is all a troll after all.
Western liberalism is based on not believing your lying eyes. but I remember when USA and Israel murdered Suleimani (they were mad that he beat up on their ISIS proxies), bombed the Iranian consulate, and then bombed Tehran to kill a diplomat at a funeral. oh and dont forget Smotrich "insinuated" that they killed the President Raisi.
Iran has shown remarkable restraint, even delaying their promised response as USA requested bc they were lied to about a ceasefire being found.
at every step the USA and Iran have escalated. I am not sure why you have a problem with this. isnt the goal of the Liberals and Neocons a war with Iran? why do you care if its the West that starts it?
Western liberalism is based on not believing your lying eyes. but I remember when USA and Israel murdered Suleimani (they were mad that he beat up on their ISIS proxies), bombed the Iranian consulate, and then bombed Tehran to kill a diplomat at a funeral. oh and dont forget Smotrich "insinuated" that they killed the President Raisi.
Iran has shown remarkable restraint, even delaying their promised response as USA requested bc they were lied to about a ceasefire being found.
at every step the US
Most of your post is nonsense. But I do think the Democrat Party allowing IRI spies to dictate its foreign policy towards Iran for much of the last 16 years, and more generally appeasing the regime, has been an unmitigated disaster the entire world is paying for.
If Obama hadn't had a policy of appeasement towards the IRI and helped stabilize the regime during his term, good chance the regime would have toppled by now, and the whole world would be better for it.
reports suggest that hamas and hezbollah are melting. the dam has broken
no idea if true, but some lebanese tv channel (mtv, not that one) is reporting that some hezbollah jerkoffs attacked their camera crew about an hour ago
the presumed hez successor has not been heard of for 24 hours
no idea if true, but some lebanese tv channel (mtv, not that one) is reporting that some hezbollah jerkoffs attacked their camera crew about an hour ago
This has been going on for awhile. The western media decided to nap it out and pretend it never happened, because it doesn't fit the preferred narrative, but a couple days ago Hezbollah shot a Belgian reporter and kidnapped another one.
--Amusingly, while the Western media decided to just not report the incident at all, Arab media decided to dissemble and use dishonest wording to imply they were injured by Israel bombing.
This has been going on for awhile. The western media decided to nap it out and pretend it never happened, because it doesn't fit the preferred narrative, but a couple days ago Hezbollah shot a Belgian reporter and kidnapped another one.
--Amusingly, while the Western media decided to just not report the incident at all, Arab media decided to dissemble and use dishonest wording to imply they were injured by Israel bombing.
do you have a source on the kidnapping and bombing by Hezbollah? bc it says nothing about it there.
do you have a source on the kidnapping and bombing by Hezbollah? bc it says nothing about it there.
https://www.brusselstimes.com/1252795/tw...
Israeli media reported that Hezbollah attacked and kidnapped Belgian journalists, shooting one. Through diplomatic efforts they were freed and are now being treated. You obviously aren't inclined to believe Israeli media.
Interestingly, Western media is being horribly dissembling and dishonest because the truth doesn't fit the narrative, but at least they are admitting one of the journalists was shot; which makes it obvious to anyone with IQ above room temperature what happened. There certainly aren't any IDF forces in central Beirut shooting anyone.
Victor what do you think of the 90k+ Israelis that had to be evacuated from border towns near Lebanon because of Hezbollah? Is that based?
https://www.brusselstimes.com/1252795/tw...
Israeli media reported that Hezbollah attacked and kidnapped Belgian journalists, shooting one. Through diplomatic efforts they were freed and are now being treated. You obviously aren't inclined to believe Israeli media.
Interestingly, Western media is being horribly dissembling and dishonest because the truth doesn't fit the narrative, but at least they are admitting one of the journali
Victor what do you think of the 90k+ Israelis that had to be evacuated from border towns near Lebanon because of Hezbollah? Is that based?
Hezbollah is exclusively targeting military installations.
over 10 raids of bunker buster bombs in Beirut and just mass liquidation in the Gaza. every day I read and see the most horrifying things and every day I see people justifying or celebrating it.
In the sense that you need a strong military to ensure the free passage of commerce, sure. But if you mean that their economy is dependent on the circulation of currency to the military then no.
Lol. The economy would go into freefall if military spending ceased. The arms manufacturers are the largest jobs program in government history.
Lol. The economy would go into freefall if military spending ceased. The arms manufacturers are the largest jobs program in government history.
Medicare+ medicaid are approx 2x the defense budget.
And most of the defense budget doesn't go to arm producers.
Now defense paper shuffling jobs and healthcare paper shuffling jobs are government job programs yes. But arms lol, you can spend the same without even buyin real weapons, which is what happens very often with 10+ years long projects that costs a ton of billions and fail to deliver anything tangible. But in the meanwhile a whole lot of people got make-believe public jobs.
Lol. The economy would go into freefall if military spending ceased. The arms manufacturers are the largest jobs program in government history.
Number one, I don’t know why we would ever stop spending on our military, so this counterfactual is just impossible to give a good faith answer to.
But I’ll indulge for a second. US military spending is at 3%~ of GDP. The idea that by taking 3% of GDP out of the economy that it will suddenly tank is kind of absurd, especially since just because we aren’t spending money on the products doesn’t mean there won’t be a market for them. We would basically have to not just stop spending money on military but also actively ban all private military jobs to see a big impact on the economy.
But this is just a fallacy anyway, because just because a certain amount of money is not spent somewhere that doesn’t mean it won’t be spent anywhere. We don’t even know if spending the money elsewhere would be a more productive use of that money. Basically any time we are dealing with a possible government expenditure we have to understand that the taxes and appropriations that we do to make that expenditure are not just popping up out of nowhere. The steel and we use to build tanks could instead be put to more productive uses like steel frames for buildings. So don’t commit the zero sum fallacy of believing that every widget is equally productive as every other widget.
Again, the main value of military spending is making sure that there is enough global security to allow for trade and free movement of goods. That’s why we have bases in Europe, Japan, and South Korea and why we patrol international waters.
Groan
That is why Iran and its proxies want a long low-intensity war, to bankrupt the West because Israel's defense is so expensive and the defensive munitions used are hard to replace. If Hezbollah, Iraq, Hamas etc. can force Israel to spend $10M/day (or whatever) defending itself with minimal casualties, that is perfect for them.
Iran deloped their previous face saving missile attack and claimed they were done. This most recent missile attack was a response to assassinating Haniyeh, which would obviously require another face saving attack. The assassination also resulted in minimal strategic gain, and pretty much guarantees to drag the conflict on as it removed the main person who was willing to negotiate with Israel. Every action in this particular case points to Israel dragging this out, not Iran. Israel needing to defend against these missiles is entirely due to Israel's actions. If Israel decides they cannot defend against more missiles then they should stop provoking Iran into launching missiles. Iran has already signalled they're done with both Hezbollah and Hamas; they left them out to dry.
Txs
I heard a plausible claim that this is bad news for Ukraine as they need these same, in short supply, defense systems that Israel does. Does that sound correct?
I don't think that Ukraine has ever used this system, they mostly use Patriots and NASAMS.
the stuff in the north of Gaza the last few days is beyond comprehension. it has actually happened many other times in history when a captive population was liquidated. Israel put out a video a few weeks ago saying that they were going to depopulate the area and they are now following through.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_e...
this is quite clearly happening now. the civilian slaughter is without mercy and clearly intentional. this has never before happened in history according to the mods of this forum.
Iran deloped their previous face saving missile attack and claimed they were done. This most recent missile attack was a response to assassinating Haniyeh, which would obviously require another face saving attack. The assassination also resulted in minimal strategic gain, and pretty much guarantees to drag the conflict on as it removed the main person who was willing to negotiate with Israel. Every action in this particular case points to Israel dragging this out, not Iran. Israel needing to def
Netenyahu wants to bring the usa into a full scale conflict with Iran. He may succeed.
I don't think that Ukraine has ever used this system, they mostly use Patriots and NASAMS.
txs
the stuff in the north of Gaza the last few days is beyond comprehension. it has actually happened many other times in history when a captive population was liquidated. Israel put out a video a few weeks ago saying that they were going to depopulate the area and they are now following through.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_e...
this is quite clearly happening now. the civilian slaughter is without m
A retired surgeon has described dealing with daily influxes of bombing and shooting victims while volunteering at a hospital in Gaza.
Prof Nizam Mamode, from Brockenhurst, Hampshire, worked at Nasser hospital for a month in August and September and has just returned to the UK.
The 62-year-old said each day he saw between 10 and 20 deaths and up to 40 people with serious injuries.
The former clinical lead of transplant surgery at Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust in London said most of the victims were women and children.
Prof Mamode said the hospital, which was raided by the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) in February, was the last one in Gaza that was "still functioning on a significant level".
He said doctors were coping with one or two mass casualty events a day, following bombings and drone attacks.
The retired surgeon said areas of Gaza looked as if "an atomic bomb had dropped"
The surgeon, who has previously worked in other conflict zones, said it was "unlike anything that I've ever seen before".
He recalled: "It was a complete shock. The moment you cross the border into Gaza it's as if an atomic bomb has dropped.
"All you see is rubble for miles around. You're driving for 30 minutes through this landscape, there's hardly anybody around, just a few armed looters.
"And then you come to the central area of Gaza where you've got a million and a half people just crammed together in a very, very small area, with so-called tents on every piece of land available.
"We were dealing mainly with trauma victims... people who were missing their arms, their legs.
"I think one of the things that shocked me most was the fact that this just continued day after day and has been going on like this for a year now.
"There was no real let-up. Pretty much every day we'd be dealing with these casualties."
If Israel attacks Iran's nuclear capabilities then USA might join in. Israel probably isn't able to knock of Iran's nuclear facilities and that would also definitely result in Iran going the final few steps in producing one.
If true is it possible that this is what’s going on
Iran deloped their previous face saving missile attack and claimed they were done. This most recent missile attack was a response to assassinating Haniyeh, which would obviously require another face saving attack. The assassination also resulted in minimal strategic gain, and pretty much guarantees to drag the conflict on as it removed the main person who was willing to negotiate with Israel. Every action in this particular case points to Israel dragging this out, not Iran. Israel needing to def
Iran and its proxies want things to quiet down into a slow burn; but fundamentally they want to maintain the status quo where they surround Israel, isolate them, and attack them whenever Israel gets out of line. That is not acceptable to the current Israel administration. As they see it, peace will come when the armies parked on Israel's borders are completely dismantled or annihilated. And frankly it is absurd that demanding control of your own borders is being framed as "provoking Iran."
Also, in respect to the bolded, all I can say is LOL. Israel is reporting the highest Qud commander was in Beirut personally overseeing Hezbollah's efforts, and may have been killed in the last day. If anything, the IRGC seems to be taking control of Hezbollah's war efforts, and getting a lot of their officers killed in the process. Iran is certainly not done with Hezbollah; and I am skeptical Hamas either.
What Iran seems to have signaled, is that it wont respond directly to what happens in Gaza or Beirut, as long as Iran itself is not attacked, but they certainly are not washing their hands as far as supporting either war effort. However, IF their top general was killed in Beirut, we will see how true this is, as they will be pressured to retaliate to save face.
Also, I am sure you are aware of this; but Hezbollah is just as important to Iran's imperial projects in Syria as it is in Lebanon; and whatever happens in Lebanon, Hezbollah will continue to operate closely with Iran there.
