LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

* 35/7/7 from 80's Jordan = Jordan needs to get better

* 22 on 35% and 6 TO's against 07' Spurs & 08' Celtics = Lebron needs more help

Jordan simply needed more help just like people say about Lebron, yet "Jordan needed Phil" is the common misperception instead.. Jordan took the Pistons 6 games with Pippen averaging 9.7 on 40% and missing Game 6, so more help was the answer, not Phil - Phil couldn't win with Pippen at that level either and was just lucky to arrive when role players like Austin Reaves, I mean Pippen had sufficiently improved.

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2025 Austin Reaves..... 17 and 5 APG on 58 TS

^^^ That's Pippen-caliber on offense but far better clutch and spacing, so MJ would win 10 straight titles with a 4th option that is better offensively than Pippen, plus AD carrying the defense and offense.

Bro take a break and enjoy the new years. The Lakers lost today just take the win.

trashing lebron and today's game IS enjoyable for me.. That's how I consume the game - is to trash it.

This is necessary because I stopped being able to consume it visually over 10 years ago when I saw that it was a "hands-off, spaced-out, beginner format" - that's what I called it - now everyone agrees and no one watches anymore except you and a few other number guys that have an insect's understanding of the game... (0... 1...0...1....0....1 - hehe, you probably understand this).

Otoh, when a player says that another player is a "dog", you don't really know what they're talking about... When a player says that he was hot and wished the game would never end - again, you don't know what he's talking about... You just understand numbers, and not even how they relate to the game of basketball (my wheelhouse)... You don't understand why a certain amount of assisted scoring from the 1st option is critical to ball movement, and therefore chemistry and teammate performance, and therefore the best basketball (dynasties and dominant champions) - even though all of this is intuitive..

I try to help, but I can only do so much... Maybe it's time for you to help me... help you... understand the game... Help me... help you... Carry on

Sometimes I forget that you don't watch games.

I derive enjoyment from taking the things that I know about the game, i.e. ball-domination is bad, and using the numbers to demonstrate this to others and show why their heroes are overrated.. I don't need to watch to do this.

And I believe that I've statistically proven or at least strongly-demonstrated that the entire low-assisted skillset (ball-domination) is inferior to other skillsets, and therefore all ball-dominators are inferior to the best of other skillsets..

I believe that I've demonstrated this convincingly, and if we had assisted rates for Bird, Kareem, Moses Malone, and Tommy Heinsohn, we would have an even bigger sample of dominant champions and dynasties to see that all the 1st options were "highly-assisted" with career assisted rates above 40%.. As I was telling Carnivore, a certain amount of assisted scoring from the 1st option is critical to ball movement, and therefore chemistry and teammate performance, and therefore the best basketball (dynasties and dominant champions)

It seems like the Cavs' offense is next-level, so the Lakers couldn't do "bron-ball" and let him lead the scoring.. A faster and more dynamic brand was required to hang with the Cavs, so that means AD and Reaves led the way - this allowed the Lakers can keep up and avoid blowout..

That's what I took from the Cavs' systematically winning all 4 quarters - more dynamic players were leading the way, so the Lakers could keep up and avoid blowout.. It's like I said previously, "bron-ball" hasn't been competitive against top teams since 2016, so the only way these Lakers can contend is with Lebron as 3rd option, which minimizes his suboptimal skillset/unassisted buckets..

I think Lebron should put on his "Charles Oakley hat" and just be a banger - average like 15 and 10 boards - that's optimal for these Lakers to contend, but since he'll probably average 23-28 of plodding old man ball, the Lakers won't play to capacity and underachieve the roster's considerable talent.

Yeah he's 40.

Personally I think he should reduce his minutes so he can be more energetic in the minutes he plays. Play more off ball, shoot his 3's, and help more on defense. In 25-27 minutes per game.

Against top teams like Cleveland, Lebron never carries teams and cannot win with weaker help like 18 on 38% from Mo Williams.

Lebron never carried weak help over top teams because he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick..

Contrary to jumpshooters like Curry or Jordan, who routinely carry the scoring load, Lebron is too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, so he needs all-time scoring help and equal-scoring partners (aka more help).. The additional need for scoring help included franchise players at 2nd and 3rd option like Wade, AD and Love, as opposed to secondary producers like Klay and Pippen.

Agreed but unfortunately, Lebron never developed the skills to fit in, so the Lakers will always have a healthy chunk of bron-ball imbedded in it.. This will prevent the kind of identity needed for a title.. One night Austin Reaves will be that guy and the team kind of plays that way, but then Lebron will periodically take the reins back, and so forth.

FG - How much does it kill you that the Championship that made Kobe a Top 10 of all time candidate (his first championship without Shaq) came in a season he had a FG assisted percentage of only 38.8%?

Did your head explode?

Trolls gonna troll fiddy.

He just shrugs and pivots to the next lie to spin.

In the playoffs that same year Kobe’s fg assisted percentage was 23.6% 😂 🤣 😂

{fallguy bs formulation algorithm engaged beep boop beep}

(As he talks about how he does not use numbers. He just has an… intuitive feel for the game. That he doesn’t even watch. Lolol.)

Neither Kobe or Lebron were 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions), but Kobe got much closer and that's because his skillset is closer to the highly-assisted skillset required of dynasty 1st options (or dominant champions).

Dynasties require 1st options with above a 40% career assisted rate and Kobe has this, but he didn't quite produce dynasties as 1st option... This doesn't disqualify him from the top 10 because there haven't been that many dynasties.. Again, his ranking over Lebron is based on his skillset producing better chemistry and teammate elevation, which produced better teams that came much closer to a dynasty and won with less than Lebron (a 2nd option that was worse than Lebron's 3rd option)..

Ultimately, Kobe's skillset is coachable because the coach can run a ball movement system and isn't forced to make Kobe the primary ball-handler with a bunch of unassisted buckets.... Otoh, Lebron's skillset of unassisted buckets handcuffs every coach and forces them to make him the primary ball-handler for every team that he ever had.. This limits strategic capacity, prevents the best basketball (dynasties and dominant champions), and causes a coaching CAROUSEL for 22 years and counting.

OOPS.

{beep boop beep bs formulation complete. Commence talking about how you have an intuitive feel for the game you know nothing about beep boop beep}

Rough start to 2025 fallguy, after the big L you took in 2024. You know if your New Year’s resolution happens to be to not look like a complete nut job anymore, a good first step would be to admit you are wrong in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Just for clarity, this thread is for GOAT discussions. Unfortunately Kobe is disqualified as he can't be a 1st option on a Championship team averaging over 40% assisted. This is obviously the best way to rate the GOATs.

FG Logic - Kobe singlehandedly prevented the Lakers from becoming a dynasty because he refused to get assisted on his buckets.

Everyone knows Kobe isn't better than Jordan, so how could he be goat?

That's settled for a lot of people.. But he's still better than Lebron, for the reasons stated in the last post about his higher-assisted skillset producing better teams, winning with less and coachable... Furthermore, the big picture is that best jumpshooters are better than the best ball-dominators for the same reasons.

And for anything you claim, you must show the significant historical trend to support it (like I do)... Accordingly, a large chunk of 1st options since 1997 have under 40% career assisted rate (ball-dominators), yet none have ever produced the best basketball (dynasty or dominant champion), which required over 40% career assisted rates 12 of 12 times (jumpshooter or big).

12 of 12 dynasties or dominant champions required 1st options with career assisted rates above 40% (jumpshooters or bigs), so Kobe's 42% and goat jumpshooting volume qualifies as the type of skillset that can produce a dynasty... And sure enough, the historical record shows that he came closer than Lebron to a dynasty, twice.

However, since neither produced dynasties, Kobe's ranking over Lebron is based on his higher-assisted skillset producing better teams/chemistry, winning with less and being coachable (not requiring that he have a primary ball-handler role/ball-dominant).. Furthermore, the big picture is that best jumpshooters are better than the best ball-dominators for the same reasons.

It's interesting because Kobe was more of a hybrid than Lebron because Lebron is mostly ball-dominant, while Kobe had the off-ball aspect, while still carrying the playmaking load and having zero playmaking help... Derek Fisher averaged 3 assists, so Kobe and his elite handle carried the playmaking load for the Lakers, while still playing within the triangle and having mid-40's assisted rates quite often... Again, Kobe was the true hybrid (great handle + great off-ball), not Lebron (handle only).. Btw, Kobe's feat of winning in the triangle without playmaking help confirms that pippen's "facilitating" and measly 5 assists wasn't needed - it's just another reason pippen is overrated.

The next ball-dominator to produce a dynasty or dominant champion will be the first, so until they prove that their skillset of unassisted buckets can produce the best basketball, they're below the best of higher-assisted skillets (jumpshooters & bigs) and peak at 11th on the all-time rankings (and dropping)..... MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Kobe, Bird, Shaq, Duncan, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar

Thank you for confirming that Kobe wasn't good enough to be the first option on a dynasty because of his ball-hog mentality. Sounds like he had the skill set, but chose to not get above that 40% cut off mark critical to be a dynasty. Sounds like it was more important for Kobe to be a ball hog and score more points than actually win. Disappointing that you now have to bump him out of the Top 10.

Also a reminder that Kobe was involved in the biggest upset in Finals history where the Lakers were dismantled by the Pistons in 5.