LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Leading your team in scoring is important but there's another level that that entails CARRYING the scoring load for playoffs and Finals (defeating max defensive attention), which is rare.. Carrying the scoring load allows a player to win with less help.
Kobe and Bird carried the scoring load for their 84', 09' and 10' chips, while Lebron never did for any chip
Bird actually had one of the goat upsets when he carried the Celtics to upset win over the super-team Lakers in 84'.. It might be the goat chip.. Lebron had an "upset" in 2016 but a teammate matched his scoring, so he didn't defeat max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level).. The Cavs were also the preseason favorite by virtue of having 3 franchise players compared to 1 for the Warriors.
if you need an all-time scorer as a teammate to lead the team in scoring for an entire playoff run, then you aren't anywhere near as good as someone that can completely carry the scoring load and therefore needs less help...
Someone that can produce an all-time team and dynasty with just Klay is superior to someone that needs franchise players and elite producers like Wade, AD or Kyrie.... plus additional franchise players and all-stars at THIRD option
this is intuitive - if you need more help, t
So basically, sort by PPG again. That's the extent of your busto analysis.
The only way to be the GOAT is through PPG.
Meanwhile if you and another player score the same PPG but you're also the primary facilitator or defender, well that doesn't matter because only PPG matters. That's idiotic.
Lebron had an "upset" in 2016 but a teammate matched his scoring, so he didn't defeat max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level).. The Cavs were also the preseason favorite by virtue of having 3 franchise players compared to 1 for the Warriors.
LeBron literally led both teams in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks.
But yeah Kyrie was his equal because only PPG matters. LOL you're a mental midget.
3 franchise players vs 1, LMAO.
Curry, Klay, and Draymond were all drafted by the same team, so categorically they could never all be franchise players because by definition only 1 can be. Jesus this is pathetic even by your standards.
So basically, sort by PPG again. That's the extent of your busto analysis.
The only way to be the GOAT is through PPG.
Meanwhile if you and another player score the same PPG but you're also the primary facilitator or defender, well that doesn't matter because only PPG matters. That's idiotic.
PPG is the biggest kind of help that everyone in history needed
Only MJ didn't need great scoring help
And you keep saying sort by PPG but MJ was the best defender and led his team in assists most years.. What should we sort by? MJ wins based on any criteria
It's like you prefer losing or something.. Sort by PPG... Sort by winning... Sort by least help... Sort by whatever... MJ always comes out on top
So Joel Embiid is better than Nikola Jokic?
3 franchise players vs 1, LMAO.
Curry, Klay, and Draymond were all drafted by the same team, so categorically they could never all be franchise players because by definition only 1 can be. Jesus this is pathetic even by your standards.
Klay just isn't a franchise player or elite producer regardless of who drafted him.. ditto Draymond
Otoh, guys like Wade, AD, Kyrie, Love and Bosh were all elite producers and franchise players
That's why the Cavs were preseason favorites in 2015 and 2016 - it's because they had a "big 3" of franchise players, while the Warriors only had 1 franchise players
Bron-ball simply underachieved the favored talent expectation (preseason favorite) by having weak regular season records and therefore falling to underdog... There's no way the 16' or 17' Finals should've been considered a mismatch - it was supposed to be a clash of titans but bron-ball simply underachieves favored talent, so the Cavs quickly fell to underdog once the season started and everyone saw how crappy bron-ball was again
it's a big part of the fraud to pretend that Lebron has a bad team (bad regular season record) so then when he eventually wins once in a rare while, it's called a big upset and overrated... but the reality is that lebron produces weak teams - but even bad teams eventually win one, so his wins get overrated
if he wins a title like Jokic did, then it will be a debate
if he CARRIES the scoring load (defeats max defensive attention) then that would put him over Jokic because Jokic had Murray getting him 26 ppg for that playoff run - so Jokic had equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention and therefore never defeated max defensive attention
Klay just isn't a franchise player or elite producer regardless of who drafted him.. ditto Draymond
That's not the ****ing point, moron.
By your criteria Cade Cunningham is a franchise player, but Devin Booker isn't.
Love and Irving were "franchise players" on lottery teams. Someone has to be the best player on a garbage team.
LeBron literally led both teams in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks.
But yeah Kyrie was his equal because only PPG matters. LOL you're a mental midget.
Leading Love by 1 RPG or steals by 0.4 SPG
these are statistical anomalies that mean nothing - leading all players in the 5 categories for 1 series is a small footnote, not a goat achievement.
He never carried any category, particularly the scoring - so he never defeated max defensive attention like MJ did (never carried scoring load)..
Jordan won 6 chips while facing the kind of defensive attention that Lebron faced in 2007 or 2015 Finals - the only difference is that Jordan was good enough at basketball to fit with spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Hughes, so he would've gotten at least 15.7 on bad efficiency from Hughes, which was enough to win the 96' and 98' Finals... 19 on 42% from a sidekick was enough for MJ to win 6 (6/6)
Ultimately, the Cavs were the preseason favorite in 2016 because they had more on-paper talent - 3 franchise players on 1 team that included a sidekick that outplays Curry.. Those Cavs were completely stacked yet Lebron couldn't even win 60 games or avoid record defeat... nowhere near goat caliber
TWOG - LeBron James leading both teams in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks in the finals is a footnote, not a GOAT achievement.
Yeah we're done here. I rest my case.
Teams with LeBron were favored primarily bc they had LeBron.
A big reason for that was seeing how well he did with his first trash Cavs team. Never has a single player carried such a mediocre team to 60+ wins. (And they won 66!)
I just looked, Hakeem's max was 58 btw.
Apparently Bird shot 44% from three during his career in games where he had 5+ attempts (RS & PO) and it's 46% if we only include his prime before injury in 89'
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SI6VjYqpRB...
So not surprisingly, Bird's shot even better than MJ when he had above bailout volume
How when you flip flop like a fish?
From Curry most overrated to top 5 organic winner within 12-15 months. Looks like everything you say is flip flop and to be discounted!
Fallguy,
Now that LeBron has cemented himself into all-nba 2nd team at age 39.
Why wasn't Jordan able to do the same at age 39? I thought Jordan was the GOAT.
Jordan 3 point % at 39 and 40 are much less than LEBRAN'S which is 41%.
TWOG - LeBron James leading both teams in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks in the finals is a footnote, not a GOAT achievement.
Yeah we're done here. I rest my case.
Teammates matched him in every category so he never carried any category
It's just a statistical anomaly that he led categories by 1 point or 0.2 steals
Jordan carrying the Bulls > Lebron sharing the load with Kyrie
Both Kyrie and Lebron have career Finals average of 28 ppg... scoring help = star help, so Lebron needed more star help while MJ won with role players
How when you flip flop like a fish?
From Curry most overrated to top 5 organic winner within 12-15 months. Looks like everything you say is flip flop and to be discounted!
Curry proved me wrong, so I made him a GOAT, whereas Lebron never proved me wrong on a single thing that I ever said about him.
When Curry won with "loser" Wiggins - that was it for me - Lebron could never win with Wiggins - Bron-ball needs far more help than that.. It's ridiculous how much more help Lebron needs - he never won as 1st option without 2 franchise players as teammates
Curry proved me wrong, so I made him a GOAT, whereas Lebron never proved me wrong on a single thing that I ever said about him.
When Curry won with "loser" Wiggins - that was it for me - Lebron could never win with Wiggins - Bron-ball needs far more help than that.. It's ridiculous how much more help Lebron needs - he never won as 1st option without 2 franchise players as teammates
This was your analysis of Curry when Curry was 33 years old. 12 years into his career.
Looks like everything you say is massively wrong!
Team Jordan eating Ls right now.
If a Jordan stan fallguy thinks Curry is the most overrated player in NBA history in year 12, and by year 13 of Curry's career was "proven wrong", we have to immediately scrutinize and lobotomize every single NBA argument fallguy has ever made.
This is a gigantic brain error that is deeply rooted in lack of understanding of anything NBA related!
Just a 3 point shooter = one dimensional
Most multifaceted player OAT = carried
Midrange Jumpers = scoring load
Fallguy,
Now that LeBron has cemented himself into all-nba 2nd team at age 39.
Why wasn't Jordan able to do the same at age 39? I thought Jordan was the GOAT.
Jordan 3 point % at 39 and 40 are much less than LEBRAN'S which is 41%.
Jordan would never average 22 on 35% vs Spurs... And he would never average 26 on 35% vs 08' Celtics - Jordan literally broke the playoff record at the same age vs goat comp, while Lebron was wetting the bed.
this clear-cut gap in performance CONFIRMS that Jordan was better at 21-23 years old
And of course Jordan was far superior from 23-38
The only age that Lebron was better is 39 years old (juiced to the gills) after his legs went from Tmac bird legs to tree trunk Karl Malone (clear-cut pics shown earlier itt - so Lebron is all roided up to catch MJ) - this is according to his peers (KG) and various media (espn's sonnen) and various people in the steroid industry (Conte), while the FBI already caught Bron's wife and trainer getting the drugs for him.
Btw, rookie Lebron averaged 20 on bad efficiency at 19-20 years old - sophomore Jordan easily beats that.
.
If a Jordan stan fallguy thinks Curry is the most overrated player in NBA history in year 12, and by year 13 of Curry's career was "proven wrong", we have to immediately scrutinize and lobotomize every single NBA argument fallguy has ever made.
This is a gigantic brain error that is deeply rooted in lack of understanding of anything NBA related!
Actually, I realized that Curry fit all my criteria.
He was an expert jumpshooter that produced a great brand of ball movement and chemistry that could win with less (just Klay) - no need to team up with opposing franchise players because he was good enough to win with less.
I realized this early in the 2022 season... Then the Warriors started running away with it and were clearly the best team again - I was like "with just Wiggins??... Wow, Curry fits my criteria maybe better than anyone...
so I changed my rankings...
The fact that I was capable of changing course shows my integrity - 10+ years trashing Lebron and NOT ONCE have I been proven wrong.. Everything he does adds to the case against him... bron-ball never evolved out of simpleton AAU ball-dominance.... MORE HELP PLEASE!! story of his career
Jordan literally had 0 games played for 4 seasons between those ages. So he literally cannot be better during those years.
And what was Jordan TS% at age 38?
Just a 3 point shooter = one dimensional
Most multifaceted player OAT = carried
Midrange Jumpers = scoring load
The numbers tell the story:
Career Finals
Kyrie................... 28 ppg
Lebron............... 28 ppg
^^^ that's completely carried compared to MJ
MJ didn't need expensive star help (a GM's nightmare) because he could carry the scoring load and therefore won with role players (GM's dream).
Otoh, passers like Magic, Oscar or Lebron are too ball-dominant at high scoring volume to carry scoring load vs top teams... So they need all-time scoring help and can't win with secondary producers like Wiggins, Lowry or Pippen.
In addition to needing the most help, ball-dominators have lower team ceilings/Finals records.. If Magic and Lebron aren't winners on the championship level (9-10 Finals record) then it's impossible with that style of play.
Notice how the numbers and historical record back up every assertion that I make.. For example, we saw Magic get massively upset by KJ in 1990 when he tried to carry the scoring load, while Lebron had the same massive upset loss in 09' to Dwight - Bron was too ball-dominant at carry-job volume (and also too predictable and turnover prone at that volume in clutch-time).
