LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
A coach would never make Shaq shoot threes just like a coach would never make Lebron or Luka play off-ball and have 50% assisted rates.... Accordingly, these things have never happened and never would happen... The players simply don't have the skills and it's common knowledge.
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Thread Cliffs
Elite strategy and elite roster construction is impossible with high-scoring ball-handlers like Lebron, Luka, Trae, etc because they turn everyone into spot-up shooter - they reduce everyone's assists (playmaking) while increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing), which produces low assist teams (low average ranking)... See the stats for Lebron lowering everyone's assists on the previous page, along with the low team assist rankings of ball-dominators.
The inability to construct elite rosters and elite strategy around them is why ball-dominators have never been the 1st option for the best basketball, such as dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12).. Since ball-dominators can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as bigs and jumpshooters (12 for 12).. This is a legitimate framework that puts Lebron out of the top ten all-time.
You were defrauded for the last 10 years by thinking Lebron was a top 10 all-time player or goat candidate, while I railed against him for the last 10 years and wasn't a fraud victim like you were.
That's the historical record.. I was right and you were wrong.. And now we know exactly why Lebron and the entire skillset of ball-dominators is so vastly inferior (thread cliffs above).
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HISTORICAL RECORD
* 2014 - fake goat debate begins along with "aids" thread
2014 - present - Matt, Fidstar or others fall for the LeFraud and post in his favor for 11 years and counting, while fallguy rails against Lebron for 11 years and determines why all ball-dominators like him aren't top 10 all-time.
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Thread Cliffs
Elite strategy and elite roster construction is impossible with high-scoring ball-handlers like Lebron, Luka, Trae, etc because they turn everyone into spot-up shooter - they reduce everyone's assists (playmaking) while increasing their assisted rate (play-finishing), which produces low assist teams (low average ranking), bad fits and zero teammate development.
The inability to develop elite rosters, chemistry, or strategy around them is why ball-dominators have never been the 1st option for "the best basketball", such as dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12),.. Since ball-dominators can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as bigs and jumpshooters (12 for 12).. This is a legitimate framework that puts Lebron out of the top ten all-time (behind the best jumpshooters and bigs).
The inferior brand of ball inherent in ball-dominators not only fails to produce the best basketball, but it also underachieves rosters the most frequently, such as the most losses ever with preseason favorites, Finals teams and bevies of losses with all-star teammates, homecourt, and 1 or 2 seeds - the GOAT standard is to never lose in any of these scenarios, which shows how far below the goat standard Lebron truly is.
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ALL LEFRAUD MYTHS BUSTED
"Met every expectation"
When Lebron first entered the league, no one expected him to give up on a 62-win league favorite after Year 7 and team up with opponents thereafter - that's the definition of failing expectations.
"Plays 5 positions"
How could he play 5 positions with the most bad fits ever and assisted rates that only point guards have??... Btw, the "bigger faster stronger" mantra applies to Shaq, Drob and others (aka bad argument and probably false).
"Carry any team to through the East"
^^^ only after putting the top 3 players in East on 1 team, or playing in such a weak conference that a 22 on 35% player could win it (and 6 TO's)... History shows that Kyrie played in 12 of 14 games in the 15' East Playoffs, while Love was the only all-star sidekick in the 18' East, so the only time that Lebron took a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it (Iverson, Dwight and Kidd twice).
"He's clutch"
He shoots 50% overall and 37% on game-winners, so that's a massive choke factor, and he's 0-7 on game-winners ot tyers in the Finals.. He also shoots 40% in clutch-time for his playoff career (last 5 within 5)... So Lebron chokes in the clutch with bad efficiency, while Jordan had zero choke factor by shooting 50% on everything, including playoff game-winner (9-18), Finals game-winners (4-8) and 48% in clutch-time for the 97' & 98' Playoffs (on 20% more clutch-time attempts).
"He makes everyone better"
He cratered most teammates' ppg, apg and has a long list of historically-bad fits with Hughes, Jamison, Bosh, Love, IT, Westbrook, Ingram, Kuzma, Wade, Clarkson, Drummond, D-Lo, and many more... The issue is that his high volume of ball-domination or unassisted buckets lowers everyone's assists (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing), aka "turns everyone into spot-up shooter"... Spot-up roles and lower assists from teammates produces low assist teams, bad fits, zero teammate development, coaching carousal, and therefore underachieving rosters (i.e. the most losses ever with preseason favorites or Finals teams, and bevies of losses with all-star teammates, homecourt and 1 or 2 seeds).
"He has all-time IQ"
People conflate "vision" with "IQ", which is knowing what the best brand of ball is and how to execute it... Unfortunately, elite strategy and roster construction is impossible with high-scoring ball-handlers like Lebron, Luka, Trae, etc because their ball-dominance turns everyone into spot-up shooter.. The inability to develop elite rosters, chemistry, or strategy around them is why ball-dominators have never been the 1st option for "the best basketball", such as dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12),.. Since ball-dominators can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as bigs and jumpshooters (12 for 12).. This is a legitimate framework that puts Lebron out of the top ten all-time (behind the best jumpshooters and bigs).
"The 16' Finals was a goat achievement"
There's never been a player that had a sidekick outplay the league MVP, so Lebron had unprecedented help, along with the preseason favorite for 6 straight years and 3 franchise players versus only 1 for the Warriors.. The media simply defrauded the public by pretending that Lebron's unprecedented help wasn't something that needed to be overcome with another unprecedented advantage (KD's)... Lebron also wet the bed for the first 4 games to need Game 7 and a teammate bailout just like the 13' Finals - he chokes for the first half of the series and then needs closeout games.
i think if mj played tonight instead of 20 years ago, you would probably take this back. but after 20 years, sure.. bron's better. he crushed it last night.
^^^ fallguy stating what the other guy was thinking with 20 years of recency bias since MJ last played, and that he would think differently if MJ played tonight instead - this post isn't in response to the game that night - it was in response to Seadood's post that referenced a pro-Lebron magazine article that he thought was so cool.
it's a point about recency bias that Seadood understood at the time.. Obviously, no one would say Lebron is better than MJ with only 1 title and after a random 30-point game in the ECF of 2013.. Furthermore, it's been conceded that this post and others were modified by mods and/or erased entirely.
The clear-cut leading scorer and "go-to" player for the Lakers was Shaq until 2004, so the point about highly-assisted players leading all the dynasties is correct - Shaq led the Lakers for the early ‘00’s, not Kobe, and his highly-assisted game allowed assist opportunities for teammates, great ball movement and a dynasty.
Dumbass
^^^ Matt agreeing with fallguy's entire premise
FG with some excellent analysis. When your highest scoring player gets assisted less, then the team averages less assists.
Brilliant.
^^^ Fidstar agreeing with fallguy and summarizing the argument nicely.
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Weaknesses
LEBRON - turnovers, FT's, clutch efficiency, offensive rebounding, ball-dominance, chemistry, young player development, winning
JORDAN -
FG with some excellent analysis. When your highest scoring player gets assisted less, then the team averages less assists.
Brilliant.
This is a great point fidstar and I may have forgotten to reply to this earlier. When a player’s assisted fg% goes down then that will give fewer assists to that one specific player, but it has nothing to do with inhibiting total team assists because point guards/forwards are facilitators anyway and they tend to create assists for others. I agree with your point completely.
The clear-cut leading scorer and "go-to" player for the Lakers was Shaq until 2004, so the point about highly-assisted players leading all the dynasties is correct - Shaq led the Lakers for the early ‘00’s, not Kobe, and his highly-assisted game allowed assist opportunities for teammates, great ball movement and a dynasty.
Dumbass.
I don’t know if anyone saw this, but I think it’s important to note how correct it is.
Shaq, not Kobe Bryant, led the early ‘00’s Lakers. And his game allowed assist opportunities for teammates and efficient buckets. Which, in the right scheme under Phil Jackson, facilitated a dynasty.
In the same way that LeBron and his elite playmaking gave assists to teammates, facilitating efficient field goals and offenses. Allowing LeBron to win 3 championships in 5 years (2012, 2013, and 2016). Impressively, without a hall of fame coach and elite ball movement scheme. His game put teammates in highly assisted positions naturally and he didn’t need a specific coach and scheme to force it. And he has the results to prove it (3 rings in 5 years without a hall of fame coach).
Older post but glad to dig it up because it does indeed make an important point that Kobe wasn’t even the leader of that team, and that LeBron is one of the GOAT playmakers.
i think if mj played tonight instead of 20 years ago, you would probably take this back. but after 20 years, sure.. bron's better. he crushed it last night.
Yeah totally agree. I used to be a huge MJ stan but recent arguments got me to really dig into the assists and assisted fg% data. Turns out that with some research I found that assisted fg% was actually negatively correlated with wins. But I was convinced that team assists are really important and LeBron, being both one of the GOAT scorers and GOAT playmakers, facilitated total team assists the most. Far more than MJ. And then when you consider that MJ needed Phil Jackson and the triangle to win anything while LeBron never needed a hall of fame coach, LeBron easily moves up in the rankings to #1 and Jordan fell quite a bit due to his limited game.
I know I’m preaching to the choir here because you already said bron is better, but it took a lot of arguments and data for me to finally change my mind. I’m finally there though.
This is a great point fidstar and I may have forgotten to reply to this earlier. When a player’s assisted fg% goes down then that will give fewer assists to that one specific player, but it has nothing to do with inhibiting total team assists because point guards/forwards are facilitators anyway and they tend to create assists for others. I agree with your point completely.
Fidstar literally said "team averages will go down"
So you're just lying at this point
I don't have to lie and play childish games - I can stick to an honest debate and don't need to gaslight like a b*tch
Yeah totally agree. I used to be a huge MJ stan but recent arguments got me to really dig into the assists and assisted fg% data.
No one quoted or commented on your stats because everyone knows they're unintelligent, childlike, and don't refute the specific points being made.
Otoh, you and Fidstar have tried futilely to disprove my claims for hundreds of pages now, but you can't because they're historical record... Ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction by turning everyone into spot-up shooter, so they can't be 1st option for the best basketball, such as dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12).. Since they can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can.. This puts Lebron out of the top 10.
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This is a great point fidstar and I may have forgotten to reply to this earlier. When a player’s assisted fg% goes down then that will give fewer assists to that one specific player, but it has nothing to do with inhibiting total team assists because point guards/forwards are facilitators anyway and they tend to create assists for others. I agree with your point completely.
+1
Not really reading in the last couple of days, but I'm curious how Wilt is in the Top 10 over LeBron. Literally never won until he teamed up with Greer (HoFer, Top 50 of all time) who was their first option.
Then won one when he teamed up with Goodrich and West (two HoFer. 1 x Top 20 of all time). He was about the 5th option on that team.
Talk about a perennial loser who needed others to carry him to win. Worse than LeBron.
No one quoted or commented on your stats because everyone knows they're unintelligent, childlike, and don't refute the specific points being made.
Otoh, you and Fidstar have tried futilely to disprove my claims for hundreds of pages now, but you can't because they're historical record... Ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction by turning everyone into spot-up shooter, so they can't be 1st option for the best basketball, such as dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12).. Since they c
Can you confirm that you agree with Matt and him advising you there is no correlation with winning and assist rate for a team.
Can you confirm that you agree with Matt and him advising you there is no correlation with winning and assist rate for a team.
I never said anything about winning - I said the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions), and how ball-dominators can't be 1st option for them.
The correlation was that Lebron's lowering of teammates' assists isn't correlated with the best basketball or the best winning - it's correlated with mediocre winning, bad fits, bad brand of ball, and underperforming rosters... 22 years shows that.
So you can confirm it?
Not really reading in the last couple of days, but I'm curious how Wilt is in the Top 10 over LeBron. Literally never won until he teamed up with Greer (HoFer, Top 50 of all time) who was their first option.
Then won one when he teamed up with Goodrich and West (two HoFer. 1 x Top 20 of all time). He was about the 5th option on that team..
Talk about a perennial loser who needed others to carry him to win. Worse than LeBron.
Everyone knows that the league was set up to defeat Wilt, and imagine if Wilt got to team up with Russell like Lebron did with the #2 producer (Wade or AD).
You simply give ZERO CREDENCE to lebron teaming up with opposing franchise players - Wilt would never lose if he did that and his highly-assisted game would have better fits with Wade, Kyrie or whoever...
Of course, Lebron mostly lost with each cast after he teamed up... It was like pulling teeth to scrape 1 title in 4 years with Love, AD or Wade (except the Allen miracle).. It's pretty sad that this is the best many people have ever seen smh
Why do we need to?.. He couldn't respond to the point I was making, so he brought up irrelevant stats that he didn't show work for or links, or explain how they relate to or refute the point I was making.
The point being made was that the best teams and the best basketball (as required for goat) IS correlated with ball movement and team assists.. I have no idea or care whether a 42-40 team is though.
So Matt should redo the numbers for only the top 3 SRS teams and Finals teams, and do team assists this time... And for all the years.... I'm sure it will show that the best teams are correlated with higher team assists.
Ball-dominators prevent elite strategy and roster construction by turning everyone into spot-up shooter, so they can't be 1st option for the best basketball, such as dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12).. Since they can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as jumpshooters or bigs (12 for 12)... Ranking behind all the best bigs and jumpshooters puts Lebron out of the top 10.
Why do we need to?.. He couldn't respond to the point I was making, so he brought up irrelevant stats that he didn't show work for or links, or explain how they relate to or refute the point I was making.
The point being made was that the best teams and the best basketball (as required for goat) IS correlated with ball movement and team assists.. I have no idea or care whether a 42-40 team is though.
So Matt should redo the numbers for only the top 3 SRS teams and Finals teams, and do team assists
So you can confirm that there is no correlation between a team having a high assist rate and being successful?
I am glad to see here that the person who actually wrote the comment and I 100% agree with each other with what was actually being said. It’s good that the person who actually wrote the comment fully confirmed it, and there are no secondary crazy people trying to pretend otherwise.
