LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

It's been one game and Luka is just starting to get back into playing shape and has to figure out how to gel with his new team....lol at using stats from that single game to make any argument about what may or may not happen long-term.

Lakers are 10-1 in their last 11 games, mostly stomping people, have road wins vs Knicks/Clippers and a home win vs Boston. Laker stock is on the rise.

There's no incentive for teams to beat the Lakers because the media won't praise them for it and instead they'll say Lebron doesn't have enough help and revive the goat debate.

Everyone sees the Lakers pulling off unprecedented deals to get AD and then spitting him out for Luka - they know that only Lebron gets this treatment of stacked decks, so they don't mind taking a night off since no one else will mind them contributing to the narrative of Lebron having a winning team.

Again, there's no incentive to win because no one will praise you or elevate you historically - they'll just say Lebron needs more help.. The league has been WWE to get Lebron chips since 2011 - since he decided to turn the league into a colluding, load-managing, non-competitive league with an easy-scoring beginner format.

I'm using actual numbers to show that what I say comes true, while you're just saying what you want to believe... The reality is that Lebron was ball-dominant as hell last night and the only reason they won was because of Luka and teammates were hyped about Luka - this allowed victory in spite of Lebron's 7 turnovers and ball-dominance (turning everyone into spot-up shooter).

Franchise players are credited with developing young guys, but Lebron's teams are the only team with multiple franchise guys... Accordingly, AD gets a lot of credit for Reaves' development, since he's the highly-assisted big that guards play well with, while Reaves craters alongside Lebron's ball-dominance.. Reaves is 30/7/10 without Lebron.

Secondly, the fact that Reaves is the first guy in 2 decades to grow from low producer to meaningful producer alongside Lebron makes my case (the exception that proves the rule, and an exception that AD developed anyway).

This is laughably insane, and you know I think you do actually believe it.

Fair enough

Again I watch LeBron healthy vs a MJ injured and yes LeBron is better .
But u comparing 2 different things shrug .

And again , in todays nba it’s clearly easier to gain stats and mj didn’t play much with great players either .

But since those facts do not matter I guess I’ll just end it here .

FWIW It’s funny how great defenders at that time were still in awe of mj excellence despite playing on 1 leg at his age and yet all the posters in this thread knows better it’s hor$e$h!t …

Imo when u compare a healthy mj in 2002 vs an injured mj end of 2002 with 2003 and don’t see a big difference in individual stats and team stats there is just nothing to add but to disagree .

Fallguy,
Please don’t be mad but can you answer a few simple questions?

1) Is defensive BPM based on team defense? Yes or no please.

2) Was Scottie Pippen’s defensive BPM higher, lower, or the same when he played with Jordan compared to adjacent years he did not play with Jordan?

3) How good do you think the Dallas Mavericks will be in the playoffs this year since they traded one of the worst big dumb ball dominators of all time in Luka Doncic for an elite highly assisted post player that carried LeBron James? They made the finals last year, as a basis for comparison.

4) How bad do you think the LA Lakers will be in the playoffs this year, given that they mistakenly traded away an elite highly assisted post player that carried LeBron James for one of the worst big dumb ball dominators of all time in Luka Doncic, and they have two of the worst big dumb ball dominators of all time on the same team now? For reference, last year they made the play-ins then lost the first round. Since they will be worse by the assisted fg % theorem, will they lose in the play-in or miss the play-in entirely?

Just giving us a rough idea of how much better the Mavericks will be and how much worse the Lakers will be will be sufficient. Thanks in advance for not getting mad and wetting the bed.

A "great" team cannot mostly lose - they must have a material stretch where they mostly won, such as 3 chips on 5 years (dynasty), or they must at least have a dominant title run.. The Heat had neither... They had 1 sixty win season, while also having the goat choke and record loss book-ending a win over babies and teammate bailout.

You can't be a great team if you lose by more than anyone else ever did and choke more than anyone else ever did - 2 historic embarrassments.. This is the definition of NOT being a great team.

So no, they were nowhere near a great team

Lol nonsense...

And AD was the statistical leader that led the NBA in playoff scoring, while carrying the Lakers to the Finals over Jokic (the "real" Finals).

GM's never built a dynasty or dominant champion with a ball-dominator as the leading scorer because ball-dominators turn teammates into spot-up shooter, thereby preventing elite roster construction.

12 of 12 dynasties or dominant champions had a jumpshooter or big as the leading scorer.. Again it's because ball-dominators turn teammates into spot-up shooter, thereby preventing elite roster construction.. This is statistical fact - they reduce teammates' assists and increase their assisted rate or spot-up role.

Lebron lost 3 playoff series as the favorite and they were all historic favorites - the 09' loss was one of the 10 biggest favorites to ever lose a series.

And the only reason that Lebron is underdog in the Finals is because his preseason favorites from 2011 to 2016 barely won 50 games each year - that's why regular season record matters - it determines seeding and favorite status.. Fans can't say Lebron was an underdog when he started as the favorite - he had the most talented roster, but bad brand causes a fall to underdog.

Lebron couldn't produce a dynasty despite more help, so he's inferior.

The Heat and Cavs had more star teammates and preseason favorite status for 6 straight years, yet Curry and Duncan produced the dynasties because they're superior players that produce better chemistry than a dumb ball-dominator.

Lebron is too bulky to run off screens or defend guys like Klay off screens, so he can't play or defend the SG position.

Since he can't play off-ball or defense, he isn't versatile... Any bum can play bad defense on someone, so good defense is required to be considered "versatile"... Unfortunately, Lebron is a bad defender, so he isn't "versatile".

Lebron had far mote help but won much less because he's inferior

It was 2011 when Lebron first beat Boston, and Wade led the Heat in ppg and apg for that series.

Wade led Lebron in scoring for that entire playoff run.. So you just don't know the history of Wade being 1st option over peak Lebron in the 11' Playoffs... Essentially, a poor man's Jordan was 1st option and carried Lebron over the Celtics..

Pure BS.

There's no "comeback" - he simply forms a new super-team and mostly loses with them.

He doesn't have to persevere with old teammates like MJ, Curry and Duncan did - he just refreshes his team with new prime studs.

Having 2 stars is an easier path than having 1 star, while getting carried as 2nd option in 2020 is also easier.

Lebron couldn't win the weakest conference ever in 09' and 10' as a massive favorite, so he formed super-teams - it's the biggest b*tch move of all-time - true OG's know he's a fraud and beta..

Wade/Bosh were hurt in 2015 but Wade nearly carried the Heat to the ECF in 16'... And Love was hurt in 2019, so you're wrong about everything.

Wade and Bosh were all-stars in 15' and 16' with 20 ppg each, so you're just lying like everything else you've said.

Btw, Jordan won 3 chips with Pippen on his last legs and getting worse stats than Wade.. Duncan also won with fossil teammates, while Lebron simply forms another super-team of prime players.. He's a joke.

Same as the 16' Heat after the injury year in 15'.

And everyone knew the 94' Bulls were a bad team and not a real 55-win team... The playoffs and following season tell the story.

By having poor regular season records, Lebron's teams fell from preseason favorite to underdog - it's Lebron's fault for having all those Finals underdogs because his teams start as the preseason favorite but a bad brand causes the fall underdog.

Lebron's efficiency is horrible in the clutch or on game-winners, so that proves a massive choke factor.

Regular efficiency - game-winner efficiency = choke factor

Lebron has massive choke factor and MJ had zero choke factor because he shot the same on game-winners as his regular shots (50%).

And again, Lebron isn't capable of hitting game-winners on the championship level (0-7) and has never scored on the last possession of a 1 possession Finals game - in 10 Finals!!!

Since Jordan shoots the same percentage on game-winners and regular shots, he has zero choke factor and this fearlessness rubbed off on teammates..

Otoh, Lebron has horrible clutch efficiency and fear factor that rubs off on teammates, so they miss when it matters and mirror Lebron's horrible clutch efficiency.

Lebron had the unprecedented help of a sidekick outplaying the league MVP and also 3 franchise players to 1 for the Warriors, which is why they were preseason favorites - the Cavs had far more talent and we're initially favored, so the only reason they needed 7 games is because Lebron wet the bed for the first 4 (24 and 6 TO's per game).

Linked stats were provided in the previous post, so it's a statistical fact that Lebron lowers everyone's assists and increases their assisted rate/spot-up role.. This horrible chemistry is why he underachieves with every team and never produced a dynasty.

Kyrie was a ready-made star and all-star MVP in 2014, so Lebron developed nothing.

And AD developed Reaves because he was the highly-assisted big man that guards fit with.. Meanwhile, Reaves craters alongside Lebron (30/6/10 without Lebron).

But regardless, if Reaves is the lone exception in 22 years, then he's the exception that proves the rule, which is obviously fine.

How many titles did Lebron win as 1st option with 1 other star?

Zero

He always needed 2 stars to win, or he was 2nd option

MJ would sweep any team in history with a 3rd star teammate like Lebron had in 2014 and 2017 - he had the preseason favorite for 6 straight yeRs but only 3 titles - that's horrible compared to

Van Gundy didn't consider the competition because Lebron never carried weak help over TOP TEAMS - he never won a series against a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick.

Steph gets no credit in 2015 for beating the injured Cavs, so Lebron deserves no credit for beating the injured Celtics without Kyrie in 2018, or the injured Heat in 2020.

Lebron faced Oladipo and then nearly lost to an injured Celtics team, so his run was nothing compared to Dwight, Iverson and Kidd - they beat better teams to make the Finals, while Lebron beat a worse team than Barkley's Sixers in 1990 (#6 SRS and 53 wins just like Detroit).

Lebron wasn't required to be a great defender for the 2nd half of his chips, and he passed less than MJ for the first half of his chips (lower playoff APG than Jordan thru 9 seasons).

Lol, he lost as a massive favorite twice - they were historic losses that will be talked about in 100 years... Accordingly, his international career is a huge black mark.. you're just delusional.

And regarding the 2024 Olympics - the only reason our favored talent nearly lost 3 times is because the team had to overcome 5 turnovers in 24 minutes for Lebron, and also Lebron freezing out all the best players for large stretches of the tournament (Ant, Steph, Tatum).

Literally no one has ever averaged 35% and 6 TO's in a series except Lebron, so he's played worse than anyone ever has... And he did it twice (07', 08').

Ok there was no incentive for teams to beat the Bulls in the 90's because MJ was the biggest draw for the league and him winning titles in his comeback was good for everyone's pockets in the long run. Therefore the league went full WWE and set the Bulls up to win titles because it was good for the league's future. We can all just play your nonsense narratives it's pretty hilarious.

If the league went WWE for Lebron why didn't it block the Durant - Warriors signing? Oh yeah because it didn't and you're full of made up nonsense.

DBPM is based on team defense and the Bulls team defense increased without Pippen in 1998, or Horace and MJ in 94/95.

And BPM is irrelevant because we're measuring Pippen's offense without Jordan, while BPM includes defense... So Pippen's offense was the same without Jordan based on PPG, APG, PER, WS/48, or efficiency, while Lebron's teammates cratered alongside him.

And don't misstate my positions.. High-scoring ball-dominators make it harder to win, but stacking the deck can still win 1 of 6 with AD, or 1 of 4 with Love or Wade... I wouldn't be surprised if Lebron went 1 for 4 again, which is something that about 250 players in history could do with Luka .. Of course, history shows that Luka/Lebron will never produce the BEST basketball (dynasties or dominant champions) because they prevent elite roster construction by turning everyone into spot-up shooter.

In 2010, Wade was the 2nd-best player in the league based on every metric, while Luka is #3 in today's game and AD has the #4 PER all-time.

These kinds of team-ups never happened in the 90's... In addition to hand-picking the best player in the league to play with, Lebron enjoys unprecedented RIDICULOUS transaction activity and 3 times the FT differential as any other team in the league.

So it's obvious rigging and I'm amazed that everyone doesn't understand this... everything is done in the open...Smh, go ahead and watch, but don't pretend or be naive enough to not know what's going on.

Team defense being better without Jordan is a pretty good argument for team defense being better without Jordan.

We are doing both. Try to keep up.

This is objectively false based on non-cherry-picked data.

But if you swap the high scoring ball dominator with an elite highly assisted post player, the team getting the highly assisted post player will get substantially better and the team getting the dumb ball dominator will get worse, yes?

I think it stands to reason that the team makeup that is better according to you will have a better team makeup, and therefore be a better team, right? Surely you aren’t saying the worse the team makeup is (big dumb ball dominator is worse than highly assisted bigs) will make the team win more? Because if so your entire position is complete word salad and there is no logical structure. It’s literally just random phrases strung together.