LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

High-scoring ball-dominators reduce everyone's assists, so their own assists merely offset a reduction of teammates, which is why they have lower-assist teams in general compared to the typical champion.

The influx of unassisted buckets from Luka will reduce everyone's assists - this causes lower assist teams compared to the average champion, thus making it harder to win titles in general.

And regardless of what they do, Luka and Lebron won't produce the best basketball (dynasty or dominant champion), since their skillset prevents elite roster construction by turning everyone into spot-up shooter.

Since ball-dominators cannot produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can (bigs & jumpshooters), which puts Lebron and all ball-dominators outside of the top 10 all-time.. Specifically, anyone can select who they feel are the best jumpshooters and bigs in history and put them above all ball-dominators like Lebron.. So a hypothetical top 10 could be: MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar - that's a top 13 with ball-dominators bringing up the rear.
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because they nearly beat the goat team twice

and they were the longest-running organic champion in the league with the best chemistry and brand of ball

and they had the 6'1" Jokic in John Stockton, who averaged 10 assists with the assisted rate of a shooting guard or even forward (47-55%).. Stockton and Jokic are the only players that averaged 10 assists without point guard assisted rates (low assisted rates of 40% or less).

Answered above, but you're just deflecting from the original point, which was that Luka and Lebron need a big because neither of them "plays 5 positions" as advertised, and infact are fellow ball-dominators that don't fit together.

And their bad fit with each other requires a stud big like Vucevic, while jumpshooters like Curry or MJ fit great with any sidekick, so the center doesn't matter (Longley or Pachulia).

19 year old Luka couldn't win without 40 year old Nowitzki and his 7.3 PPG?????

or Porzingas giving him 20/10 and 2.0 blocks in 2020, or Kyrie giving him big numbers in the 24' Playoffs, or Brunson completely dominating the 22' Playoffs.

Luka lost a ton with all-stars, while Jordan was unbeatable in the instant he got 1 all-star that was less productive than all those guys.

Jordan wet the bed miserably when he got the chance to play with George Gervin.

And he couldn't win with Rip Hamilton, but Chauncey Billups could.

MJ won with Parish though, so... well.

Checkmate

Anyway, only a fool wouldn't be impressed with what Luka has done to date in his career.

There really aren't a lot of comps.

In his first 6 years:
- Finals and Conference Finals appearance
- 5 All NBA first team
- 29/9/8 regular season
- 31/9/8 playoffs
- Overachieved in every playoffs to date.

Only real comparisons are LeBron and Duncan in recent history. MJ didn't get close to achieving this.

He did this while entering a foreign country at 19 years old.

As above, if you aren't impressed, you're a fool.

Also Brunson "ultra dominate" at 21.6/4.6/3.7 on eFG of 50%?

Also, apparently KP was an All NBA player. News to me.

And we are counting awards after the year in question???

Cool. First 3 peat of the Bulls MJ got carried by 3 other all stars. Most stacked team of all time.

And Utah was a Champion team.

This thread just keeps on giving.

Gervin didn't play in the 86' Playoffs - you guys should look stuff up before you make claims.

And no one cares about Wizards Jordan, just like you'll say "who cares about 40-year old version of Lebron" when he collapses with Luka shortly.

History shows that Luka couldn't win with all-stars like Kyrie or Porzingas and couldn't fit with or develop Brunson... Otoh, MJ produced the 2nd best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs despite not having a 15 ppg teammate, and then he was unbeatable with just one all-star that was a lower producer than Kyrie or Brunson.

Luka's numbers are also complete trash compared to Jordan... And dumb ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron are bad at basketball compared to Jordan because Jordan was elite on-ball and off-ball, so he produced better chemistry/fits, teammate development/elevation and therefore winning.

100% - it’s silly to try and argue against objective reality.

Luka's numbers are trash compared to MJ's - don't make me laugh.

And Luka lost a bunch with all-stars like Kyrie that made the Finals without him and outplayed MVP's , while MJ was unbeatable with a lower producer that couldn't make the Finals without him and never outplayed any great player... Meanwhile, Luka didn't fit with Porzingas or Brunson, while MJ fit with everyone because he was elite on-ball and off-ball..

So there's no comparison - Luka is a perennially losing ball-dominator that can't win without teaming up with opposing franchise players, just like Lebron and all high scoring ball-dominators.

Gervin didn't play in the 86' Playoffs - you guys should look stuff up before you make claims.

Luka couldn't win with Brunson, Porzingas, Kyrie, or coaches like Rick Carlisle and Jason Kidd, so he's a joke compared to MJ... Their individual numbers show that, along with a comparison of their casts - Luka had the far higher-producing casts but couldn't win anything because his skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter.

In 2022, I predicted that Luka would never win organically here:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthr...

It's because high-scoring ball-dominators turn everyone into spot-up shooter - this prevents elite roster construction, young player development, and chemistry, thereby requiring ready-made stars.

You're the one who brought up 19 year old Luka playing with 40 year old Nowitzki as being an 'all star teammate's as if it had any relevance. Maybe you should've looked things up.

It's convenient not to care about Wizards Jordan, and it mattered less years ago when it could have been reasonably expected that LeBron would be a JAG aged 38 - 40. But we're here now, and LeBron is still producing All-NBA seasons and getting in the playoff mix - in the West. The full scale of LeBron's career has unfolded, and we now know he was a better young player than Jordan and a better old player than Jordan, and he put together a much more robust body of work overall. You would prefer if that didn't matter, but it does and will in the future.

Luka made finals during this early portion of his career, but Jordan couldn't, so I haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Blah blah blah, you keep going with this nonsense no matter how many times it is debunked. Jordan had an intense stretch with a perfect locked-in context - GOAT coach Pippen as his no.2 in an expansion league with weaker competition. He couldn't win before or after this, and he couldn't build even a no.8 seed as GM with the luxury of himself on a minimum contract.

He was great; it was a pivotal era for the sport, and nostalgia is a powerful emotion. But he has been surpassed. The inevitability of progress.

Upon entering the league, Luka was gifted:

1) a goat mentor in Dirk

2) a "Pippen" to develop with in Brunson

3) a HOF and ball movement coach in Carlisle

4) all-star centers and guards were gifted in Year 2 and Year 5 (Porzingas and Kyrie)

Otoh, MJ had nothing but built a lottery team to the 2nd best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs before Phil arrived.

Phil simply inherited and reaped the rewards of a team that was already on the cusp of a title and the roster entering their prime.... (and the goat scorer that could provide 41 ppg of mostly assisted scoring as required to 3-peat in the most hated, restrictive and losing offense up to that point).

Luka's numbers were trash? jfc.

You know you can think MJ is GOAT and still say something nice about someone else.

By not admitting what Luka has done is impressive, just makes every argument you make pointless.

Like, it doesn't matter what someone who thinks the earth is flat says about anything else.

Thanks for bringing up Kyrie. Luka also resurrected his career. Another achievement.

Having AD is like Wizards' Jordan having Duncan.

So your statement about Lebron being in the playoff mix is false, since AD is carrying the offense and defense just like 2020 when he lifted a lottery team to championship (and led the NBA in playoff scoring).

22-years old vs Spurs

01' KOBE'............ 33 on 53%
05' AMARE.......... 37 on 55%
07' LEBRON........ 22 on 35% (6 TO's)


23-years old vs Celtics

08' LEBRON........ 26 on 35% (6 TO's)
86' JORDAN........ 44 on 50%

No one in history shot 35% with 6 TO's - it's the worst anyone ever played, so stop overrating young Lebron... Tons of guys were better like young Magic, Michael, Kobe or even Amare was comparable.. Certainly Jordan was better from 20 or 21 onwards.. I'll give Lebron 19 and before.

Lebron is a negative player with -1.8 plus/minus over a massive sample and getting carried by AD's positive play, while 40-year MJ was a positive player and would have a better record with AD than "bron-ball" does... Almost anyone would have a better record with AD.

^^^ of inferior accomplishment.... A career of inferior accomplishment

Instead of achieving the best basketball like 70 wins, 3-peat, unbeatable teams/dynasty, and goat MVP or title frequency, Lebron settled for struggling 50-win teams, perennial losers and half the MVP or title frequency.

Anyone that made the Finals before MJ had an all-star teammate and other decorated players, while MJ three-peated the instant he got that kind of help..

Everybody in history mostly lost with many all-star teammates, while MJ is the only guy that won the instant he got just 1 and didn't need another.. He's punished for this greatness by people saying he needed Pippen's 18/5 playoff averages as a Bull (with bad efficiency), instead of getting credit for carrying this crap.

Anyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to get FMVP or 25 ppg for at least 1 of the Finals, but Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg.

It's been debunked that Luka is a ball-dominator?

That's common knowledge fact.. He isn't elite off-ball like MJ, so he has worse fits and therefore produces perennial losers despite more all-star help than MJ had.

Rookie Luka was gifted a championship coach in Rick Carlisle, who executed the greatest upset in history and is a renowned ball movement coach.

Otoh, Jordan received a 1st time nobody coach with Phil Jackson in 1990 and gave him a career.

And MJ was given an 8 PPG rookie, while Luka was gifted all-star champions like Kyrie or franchise players to grow with like Brunson.. So you're pretty delusional

Lukas career is comparable to Iverson's or Dwight's through 7 years and nowhere near Jordan's since Jordan had developed a 3-peat team by his 7th season and far better production rates/stats than Luka.

LeBron was Finals MVP in 2020. He was 2nd in MVP voting; AD was 6th.

LeBron was NBA Cup MVP last year.

AD never managed to make the Lakers his team; that's just the reality.

As expected, both LeBron and AD have made significant contributions since 2022. Your constant contention that it's all AD is nonsense. It is not supported by fact.

LeBron carrying the talent-deficient 2007 Cavs to the finals dwarves anything MJ was able to do in his early career.

In his age 40 season, LeBron James has an adjusted BPM of 5.2 through 44 games to date, 10th in the league (AD has managed 5.8 through his 42 games, putting him 6th).

In Jordan's age 39 season, he managed a BPM of 1.7, tying him for 51st place.

It is insane to argue that Wizards' MJ is better than LeBron in the last 2.5 seasons. The data is in. You can watch the tape, read the stats, or whatever. It is not close.

It is beyond question at this point that LeBron James has had a better career than Michael Jordan. Their respective peaks and Championship runs are a discussion around context—a discussion that will continue for years to come, with ever more people still alive believing LeBron was better.

Yes, the Bulls run was unique. They were a well-constructed team with GOAT coaching that never faced a historic Finals Opponent.

Your ball domination / assist rate crap has been debunked ad nasuem. There isn't anything further to add. You may continue to delude yourself that it is meaningful. You are literally typing random strings of words at this point.

This is such nonsense. What does it even mean? Rick Carlisle is a fine coach who has his championship and has done good things with the Pacers recently.

Phil Jackson is literally the GOAT coach. Whatever he was before he became Bulls coach is whatever. We KNOW what he went on to be. He coached 20 seasons, went to the playoffs every year, went to the Finals 13 times, won 11 NBA Titles. He followed up a second three-peat with the Bulls with a three-peat with the Lakers.

Rick Carlisle doesn't exist on the same planet as Phil Jackson; nobody does.

Michael Jordan was such a unique and special do it all singular winner that Jackson was able to go to LA and continue winning with Kobe and Shaq without missing a beat. Curious.

For reference, none of LeBron's coaches have won an NBA title without him. Context is everything. Spolestra, Lue and Mike Brown have all had levels of success of course, but Phil Jackson looms very large over Michael Jordan's success IMO.