LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

^^^ Wow... Lebron's best friend Ernest "Randy" Mims was caught with illegal testosterone and HCG that he said was for "weight loss"... This excuse holds no water because normal people like him can get those items from a regular doctor, so the only reason he would access the black market is for Lebron.. And it wasn't just any black market - it was the biggest supplier of PED's to athletes ever.

So all of that is amazing.. It's also amazing that the Bulls 3-peated with the same roster from the 88' lottery cast, so the improvement each year was actual basketball - there were no additions or team-ups like today's star gets.... The mindset was just "lose, try again... lose, try again.... lose, try again.... never again"... The team just kept getting better at basketball despite the talent level remaining the same since the lottery cast in 88', aka "organic".. This unique approach of relying on basketball improvement instead of more help/talent is how Jordan's team became the goat team..

MJ's skillset allowed this development because he wasn't a ball-dominator that turns everyone into spot-up shooter, which is why Lebron, and all high-scoring ball-dominators can't win organically
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2020 WCF

AD............... 31 on 67 TS
JOKIC.......... 22 on 63 TS

^^^ And yet Lebron couldn't get anywhere near a 3-peat or 70 wins with far greater help than MJ ever had

The issue is that Lebron's skillset of high-scoring, ball-domination entails mostly unassisted buckets that turns everyone into spot-up shooter - this prevents elite roster construction and chemistry, thereby causing a need to team-up with ready-made stars like AD, Wade, Kyrie, Love, Bosh, Westbrook, and Luka.

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Karl Malone assisted rate: 75%

Prime Lebron's peak assisted rate: 41%

Old Lebron's assisted rate from standing around: 45%

CONCLUSION: lebron cannot play like Karl Malone, as needed for Lebron/Luka to have a "dynasty fit" that allows victory with Longley, Jaxon Hayes, Pachulia, Looney, Cartwright, or nearly any center... And of course, Lebron lacks the skills to have a high assisted rate that true bigs have, so that's another reason the Lakers "need a big".

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Unprecedented Help


1) 6 straight preseason favorites (11-16')

2) Sidekick outplaying league MVP

3) 3 franchise players from same conference teaming up (1 franchise player for 16' Warriors)

The media's fraud was pretending that this unprecedented advantage wasn't something that needed to be overcome with another unprecedented advantage (KD's Warriors).. They pretended that Lebron's teams were normal and KD was stacking the deck, when in reality the deck was already stacked by Lebron, so KD was just responding in kind.. Both Lebron and KD enjoyed unprecedented advantages, but Lebron's lasted twice as long (6 years).

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CRITICAL SERIES:

Lebron's first time getting past his nemesis the Celtics:

2011 ECSF

WADE............ 30/7/5 on 53%
LEBRON........ 28/8/4 on 48%


Goat Choke

2011 FINALS

WADE............ 27/7/5 on 55%
LEBRON........ 18/7/7 on 48%


Unprecedented help - sidekick outplays league MVP

2016 FINALS

KYRIE............. 28 on 47%
LEBRON......... 29 on 48%


Lebron vs grown-up KD

2017 FINALS

KYRIE............. 29 on 47%
LEBRON......... 34 on 56%


Beating Jokic

AD.................. 31 on 53%
LEBRON......... 28 on 48%


Luka??

^^^ Lebron somehow lost some of these series despite getting carried by teammates, while MJ averaged 10-30 more than Pippen in every series... Pippen's mostly transition and dunking peaked at around 15-22 ppg on weak efficiency, and he was worse than Jeff Green outside the system that he grew up in (system player).

Sounds like Malone should have lowered his assist rate and he would be more successful like LeBron.

Lebron got swept or lost by record amount when he had Malone's help, and he missed the play-in... He was not nearly beating the goat team like Malone, or sweeping Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and Popovich/Duncan Spurs.

The fact that the league must give Lebron all this help proves my point that ball-dominators are trash players.. The fact that he cannot produce a great team and perennially-loses regardless of the deck-stacking further proves the point... And we already know they aren't worthy of the max.

Ultimately, MJ won 6 with Pippen, while Lebron isn't considered an automatic title with Luka freaking Doncic... And he won much less with guys that were better than Pippen (AD, Wade), and also 3rd stars (2 Pippen's).

Meanwhile, Jokic, MJ, Curry, Kobe, Duncan, and tons of other guys did more with less help... i.e. more rings, dynasty, and/or dominant champion....These highly-assisted skillsets were leading scorer for all the dynasties and dominant champions (never low-assisted ball-dominators).

I love when FG ships a clean cut, you get strings of nonsensical posts ignoring the point just made. I think deep down he knows when his arguments are being ripped apart but covering up with volumes of hate and nonsense has been the strategy for years, so why stop now.

Lebron was less successful than Malone before the decision to team-up with opponents, and failed every expectation after teaming up.

1 for 6 with AD isn't a success... It's rank failure and a joke to any objective person that isn't falling for the fraud and sipping the coolaid.

1 for 4 with Love isn't a success, and neither is 2 for 4 with Wade - it's all a failure of expectation.

And Malone's nearly beat the goat team twice, while Lebron wasn't competitive in 2017 or 2018.

Ultimately, Lebron got swept or lost by record amount when he had Malone's help, and he also missed the play-in... He wasn't nearly beating the goat team like Malone, or sweeping Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and Popovich/Duncan Spurs.. Lebron was destroyed by Popovich/Duncan...

So you're just delusional and impressionable.

There's no hate, only objective truth that ball-dominators aren't worth the max - the market agrees with me, not you.

The reason they aren't worth the max is because it's statistical fact that they turn everyone into spot-up shooter, which prevents elite roster construction, so they can't be the 1st option for the best basketball (dynasty or dominant champion).

This hasn't been refuted because it isn't an argument - it's the historical record... We've essentially discovered why ball-dominators like Lebron produce weaker teams with bad Finals records, and therefore are inferior to MJ.

The best highly-assisted players (the best bigs and jumpshooters) are far more successful than the best low-assisted players (ball-dominators).. It isn't remotely close.

That's why all the best bigs and jumpshooters are ahead of the best ball-dominators, which puts Lebron outside the top 10 all-time.

Again, the statistical reality is that high-scoring ball-dominators have large volume of unassisted buckets that reduce teammates' assists while increasing their assisted rate and spot-up role.. By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction, so they can't be 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties and dominant champions).

Hope that helps

Fallguy cliffs

When a high usage player has a high assisted fg rate it is good and is the secret to dominant champions.

When other players have a high assisted fg rate facilitated by the high usage player giving assists it is bad and the reason teams do not become dynasties. In fact, quality basketball has zero to do with other players, the scheme, or the coach. Literally, only the volume scorer matters and his assisted fg%.

Therefore it is bad to be a player that scores a lot of points and has a lot of assists.

No, readers of this thread, you are not hallucinating. That has been his actual argument for several years. He covers it up in actual word vomit because that’s what he does when proven wrong hundreds upon hundreds of times, but that is indeed his argument.

And he "found" this argument as part of his quest to reverse engineer rankings to prove LeBron was not a top 10 player of all time.

And more importantly he does this without watching the game.

Or maybe Hughes was a mediocre player that ran good for 60 games. It was a fluke season.

How many championships does the above cohort have sans LeBron? How many championships do his former coaches have without LeBron?

It's statistical fact that an increase in a teammate's assisted rate or spot-up role has a negative correlation with their APG... So when a high-scoring ball-dominator increases his teammate's spot-up role, the teammate's APG decreases and causes low-assist teams compared to the typical champion.. The spot-up roles also prevent elite roster construction, so ball-dominators can't be 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions).

But let's break it down all the way to fully understand how this works.

When Kevin Love joined Lebron and his assisted rate increased from 57% to 72%, the 15% increase represents spot-up buckets that were credited as assists to Lebron and increase his APG.. So even though everyone's assisted rate and spot-up buckets increase alongside Lebron, teammates aren't participating in this spot-up creation and seeing their APG increase - only Lebron does - the increase in everyone's spot-up role is a direct funnel to Lebron's APG totals... Accordingly, Lebron's APG is a summation of the increases in teammates' assisted rate (spot-up role), but the increase in spot-up role reduces teammates' APG and causes low-assist teams compared to the typical champion.. Every playoff loss in Lebron's career shows deficits in team assists, except the greatest choke of all-time (11' Finals), so this spot-up role and low team assist issue is the achilles' heel of high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron.

Ultimately, since high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron have a style and skillset that turns everyone into spot-up shooter, they prevent elite roster construction and therefore can't be the leading scorer for the best basketball (dynasty or dominant champion).. Since high-scoring ball-dominators cannot produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can (bigs & jumpshooters), which puts all high-soring ball-dominators like Lebron outside the top 10 all-time.

There's no time to watch games when you have to spend all day arguing on message boards.

If you've never seen someone play, you can learn a lot about them by looking at assisted rate... Anyone with assisted rates over 50% are bigs or jumpshooters, and you can tell which one by looking at the other stats like height, three-point attempts (to see if they're a jumpshooter), blocks, while FT's indicate some sophistication to their game, such as being more than a dunker (Clint Capela) or spot-up shooter (Korver).. Time of possession, clutch stats and other stats provide a complete picture of a player.

Of course, anyone with an assisted rate below 40% is dominating the ball and employing a primary ballhandler style with unassisted buckets... And if they're doing this at high scoring levels, then the large volume of unassisted buckets leads to the spot-up roles that prevent elite roster construction and the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions), and also low assist teams that are contrary to most title teams.

Yes!

It's a window to their limitations.

but nahhhhh.

It highlights how they can win despite sub-par roster construction. Like how Bron was over 40% when he had good roster construction. I think I heard it was 9 times!

It's good that such players can win despite a lack of talent around them (unlike MJ).

It's not bad that they're so good they can takeover and win with mediocre guys like Mo Williams around them.

Where did this assisted fg **** even come from?

Who has ever used that stat?

Fallguy is like Dora the Explorer and he's the first person who has found this thing!

05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN........... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP.... 16/6/5... No All-D

It matters that Lebron's skillset prevents good roster construction because it makes him underachieve and perennially-lose with every cast (incapable of a great team/dynasty).

And Lebron always had help because he entered the league with the East all-star center on his team and acquired a player that was better than 1990 Pippen to make his first playoffs in 2006 (see stats in previous post).. And he also had better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls despite not being all-defense until 09'.... So it's clear that Jordan 3-peated with less help on both sides of the ball.

Finally, Lebron couldn't win with 18 on 38% from Mo because he never won a series against a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring and efficiency from a sidekick... He can't effectively carry the scoring load against top teams because he's too ball-dominant at high volume (insufficient brand to beat top teams), and therefore needs all-time scoring help (star help)... Otoh, highly-assisted 1st options like Jokic, MJ or Curry can drop 40 while the ball moves, so they can beat top teams while carrying the scoring load and therefore win with low-producers like Murray, Klay or Pippen (19 on 42% for Finals career).

damn fallguy the amount of stats you produce is crazy
like this is your job

problem is I just heard to make stuff up before.

I told you long time ago.

But do you at least understand now that the game is way more competitive and skilled
now than ever before? You know seeing is how there's like 5 times the amount of people
playing basketball around the world as opposed to 30 years ago?

Do you understand that?? I'm just wondering if any arguement is even winnable with people like u
If you don't understand that simple ABC 6 year old concept, well ****