LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Well normal , mj didn’t had 1 all of famers on his team (again..) while lebron does .
Mj obviously will take a bit more shots …

It’s insane that you guys believe Wizards Jordan was better than the LeBron 38 - 40 era we are witnessing now. It’s a microcosm of the entire debate tbh. Your eyes see a different reality to the world as it is.

Also - if Jordan had no help on the Wizards it’s his own fault! He was the GM and playing on a minimum deal. If he couldn’t put a roster around himself, that’s on him.

Finally - LeBron played through the end of the 2023 season and payoffs with that lisfranc issue so the idea he ‘won’t play hurt’ is outrageous.

This is a particularly bankrupt moment in this terrible thread.

So let's ignore the rantings of a mentally ill poser who's using this thread primarily as a way to cope with the humiliation and disappointment that he's reliving every day and well, try to get back to basketball. This is a fairly interesting video:

I've talked about the resources available to modern players that make the game exponentially more competitive from a skill perspective, but what's even crazier is perhaps on the coaching and schematic side. Imagine being a high school or youth coach in the 70's and 80's - consider the resources and information available to you. And imagine being one today. It's not even remotely fair - you know how every scheme and every system works at every level, there are video breakdowns of every possible thing anyone could do, and any sort of innovation that happens anywhere becomes more or less instantly available to everyone.

The result of all this is that former players that grew up and played before the information era and refuse to keep up are literally unable to comprehend what's happening before their eyes. They don't know what they are watching - apparently that's true even of nearly modern players like Paul Pierce and players that had high basketball IQ and are presumably still involved in the game like Charles Barkley. There's just zero understanding of what's happening.

And if you watch 80's or 90's basketball (and to be sure early-mid 00's were bad too, the rapid evolution of the game started late 00's and accelerated in the early-mid 10's), sure the skill level was insanely lower but another thing that's very obvious is that team defense is completely and utterly atrocious and the processing speed of average players is completely terrible by today's standards.

A lot of people talk about the size and athleticism of today's players but that's probably the thing that improved the least, simply because when the skill and understanding bar is low (consider the big men of 90's for instance), you can have a fairly high bar for size and athleticism. And it's a lot easier to recruit for size and athleticism in a low-information environment like the 80's and 90's - athletic 7-footer are hard to miss.

If you understand this evolution, what's truly insane about Lebron's career is that he's clearly from before this era, and has completely adjusted enough to become one of the very best players of the information era. This whole taking care of his body thing is a complete distraction, lots of players were still highly athletic into their 40's - consider MJ, Karl Malone and Kareem - but no all-time great has had to adjust to the extent that Lebron did.

It’s not that mj was better .
It’s about mj did great on one leg and he could obviously do much better (showed in 46 games the previous year before his injuries) if he wouldn’t be injured .
The problem is comparing a healthy Lebron with an injured MJ and claiming it’s proof how great Lebron is so much better .
Why not compare mj injured to Lebron injured ?
Mj injured same stats we already using
Lebron injured -> sitting on the bench 0 stats ….

Has for mj being the GM , well u can say the same
Thing about Lebron failure to have just 4 chips .
It’s irrelevant.
Lebron had massively better players than mj played with during their past prime .
It’s just a fact , especially to farm
better stats .

Winning is more then stats and efficiency.
Mj knew that and seem ty Lue knew that too at the end of the video ….

Ps: https://www.si.com/nba/2023/03/23/lebron...

Not specifically blaming LeBron , it just what it is today in the nba , they even take day off uninjured shrug .

Yeah, the media on the NBA is often utterly insane to me. Never has a sport indulged so much media coverage, running down the current product at every opportunity. The assertion that many talking heads don't understand why things are different doesn't hugely wash with me. Older players, maybe. But someone will have told Barkley / Shaq / Stephen A Smith et al. about the analytics movement and how front-office people effectively solved the sport from 2010 on. I think they know more than they let on, but they understand there is a market out there that likes hearing about how 1995 was better.

Threadzilla had discussed all of this for years if you remember. There was a war between the eye test people and the advanced stats guys. The stats guys won. Front offices started to fill up with people holding those perspectives, and the game changed. You can now consume content from former front office people like Nate Duncan and John Hollinger, watch videos like the above from Thinking Basketball and others, and understand much better what is happening.

Teams still make player evaluation mistakes, have bad owners, suffer bad variance on injuries, or hire hapless coaches. It is a sport played by humans, and the ability to execute under massive pressure is often the difference between winning and losing.

But clearly, there are many NBA fans or sports fans within the NBA catchment pool at certain times of the year who genuinely don't care for any of this. They love stories about old greats and games from 30 / 40 years ago and want to view the modern game through a narrative-driven prism. The abovementioned content is often deliberately created to speak to that cohort. It sells.

=============

LeBron was a monster in the 2000s pre-analytics era. 2nd in MVP in 2006. Led a terrible team to the finals in 2007. MVP in 2009 and 2010. The whole 'LeBron would be too soft for the '90s' stuff is probably false. The 2000s were ferocious physically, a low-scoring era. LeBron averaged 2266 points per season between 2004 and 2010 and led the league in minutes twice.

He went to war against the Splash Bros in 2015 and 2016 and managed eight straight finals trips during the game's dramatic transition period.

Now, at 40 in 2025, he has become one of the best deep shooters in the league and demonstrates much more of a "bag" on mid-range fadeaway than he had in his 20s.

=============

So yeah, he has adapted to a period of tremendous change. With his excellent shooting, passing, and on-court awareness, I do not doubt that the current LeBron would have been an All-NBA player in 2006. Just as the slashing athletic scorer of 20 years ago with the massive motor on defence would be hyper-impactful in the 2025 NBA.

Maybe Paul Pierce genuinely doesn't understand all of that. He is fixated on his career and how it was when he was great, and he doesn't want to see beyond that. I'm not sure, though - we live in a weird time where there is a thirst for anti-intellectual content that sells the past as a utopia across a broad range of subjects. I reckon many former NBA players are now getting their cheques as talking heads have a market in mind.

MJ did **** all winning at Washington.

We can compare healthy LeBron to healthy MJ 38 - 40 or unhealthy (LeBron's run to the Western Finals), but it's still the same answer. You don't need to fixate on the stats here (though they are obviously in LeBron's favour) or the results (perennial playoff team versus failure to make the top 8 in the East) or the awards (All-NBA versus charity All-Star selection). JUST WATCH LEBRON PLAY. He's so much better, and it's laughable to suggest otherwise. You can't be in the actual world if you watch LeBron play now versus Wizards MJ and think otherwise.

Before Jordan got hurt near his 39th birthday, he had the 4 seed with no help, while Lebron and AD had the 5 seed this year and play-in other years - that shows Lebron was worse than 38-year Jordan.

Secondly, we know Lebron is inferior because he went 1 for 6 with AD and was 2nd leading scorer during the title run, while MJ went 6/6 with poor man's AD and carried the load for every chip... Night and day...

Or if you don't like the 1 for 6 with AD, then there's 1 for 4 with Wade or Love plus 3rd stars - he can't get anywhere near a 3-peat regardless of cast, aka objectively inferior to MJ.

And the reason why fans stopped watching today's game is because it's the same old thing - it's just drive-and-kick for 3-pointers - no strategy or diversity... It's just threes and layups in today's spaced-out, hands-off beginner format, so zero pure scoring ability is required... This means the best players in the world come from tougher formats internationally.. American hoops is dead thanks to Lebron - his "decision" ushered in an era of less competitiveness that included colluding, load management and easy-scoring beginner format that can't produce the best players anymore.

Lebron only produces perennial losers like 1 for 6 with AD, or 1 for 4 with Wade and Love.

That's a joke and not even top 100 all-time... MJ went 6/6 with poor man's AD, yet you want me to praise a dumb ball-dominatin' bricklayer and the biggest turnover machine and loser of all-time.

I have an idea - get a brain.... and a spine while you're at it.. Stop listening to these nerd journalism majors on tv.. They know nothing about basketball.

Defenders in previous eras were allowed to paint-camp as long as they wanted in certain situations, as specified in the illegal defense rules - the video ignores this even though some of the clips actually show the paint-camping.. Players in previous eras also had to sprint rim to rim, while today's 3-point contest format allows players to saunter from 3-point line to 3-point line... Watch any footage and notice the nonchalant pace and relaxed nature of today's players sauntering - the 3-point format encourages players to pop the 3 at any moment, so there's no rush or hard charge towards the rim - guys can saunter instead... And they prefer not to overcommit running the floor anyway, since they have to suddenly sprint back when a 3 gets chucked.

The sauntering is also because the spacing and hands-off format provides more time for decisions.. Otoh, the lack of spacing and physicality in previous eras required quicker decisions and invoked a more panicked/frantic nature from the players.. Players also sprinted rim to rim, so there was no sauntering... Ultimately, the traffic of previous eras required quick instinct, touch and footwork to mitigate the traffic, while today's contact-less, 3-point format and defensive 3 has removed all traffic, so players don't need pure instinct or touch to mitigate any traffic - they can just take their time seeking an easy three or layup in the open paint, aka "robot"... It's a joke, and that's why no one watches anymore.. The ratings tell the story.

Ultimately, this bum videomaker never played when he was younger, so he sees the x's and o's of today's clipboards or video rooms and thinks they didn't have this in the 90's - aka "there was nothing complicated in the 90's".... What a clown.. Then he cherry-picks plays that actually show more traffic than any of today's games, while not realizing that there's a robust ecosystem of far superior videos showing how bad today's game is - this ecosystem of truth-telling is far bigger than a couple one-offs from MJ-haters.. And these videos are infinitely better because there's a lot of them (competition for truth-seekers), while the record PPG and ORTG of today's game means there's real substance in these videos - the videos are showing the easiest scoring format of all-time where players get more open and/or weakly-contested buckets than ever before.

REMINDER: the nba rigged a bad Luka trade with no bidding and then had the media run cover for it.. The no bidding was because the nba rigged it.. That's by far the best explanation.. Infact, it's the only remotely viable one for the no bidding.

You obviously never live in Montreal and see how hockey is talked about here .
I suspect many legacy goat team sports in soccer probably and other sports are Similar in that regard too .

In Montreal (tho today I stop listening to it but I was an avid watcher in the 80s/90s ) it was 12 months a year about hockey news with some lapsus on baseball for couple months when the expos were doing great (which was rare) .

The whole "media ruined NBA" is hilarious... What amazing denial that the product simply turned into a 3-point contest and less competitive via collusions, load management and easy-scoring format.

People said that no one would ever come remotely close to Russell's 8 straight titles but MJ could've conceivably done it, so this proved that it wasn't "impossible"..

Similarly, many pundits would've said that it's impossible to 3-peat in today's NFL, and yet Mahomes is showing that it's possible, even if he falls short...

Accordingly, all that is needed to match or exceed previous winning milestones is the GOAT that can actually 3-peat and make 8 straight a possibility (MJ).

REMINDER: the nba rigged a horrible Luka trade with no bidding and then had the media run cover for it.. The no bidding was because the nba rigged it.. There's no other viable explanation for the no bidding other than rig-job

.

2025

Reaves w/out Lebron........ 29.7... 6.3... 9.7
Reaves Overall Stats'......... 19.1... 4.3... 6.1

Rui w/out Lebron............... 19.3... 6.3... 1.3
Rui Overall Stats'................ 13.0... 5.2... 1.5


2024

Reaves w/out Lebron........ 19.5... 4.7... 5.2
Reaves Overall Stats'......... 15.9... 4.3... 5.5

Rui w/out Lebron............... 17.1... 5.5... 1.5
Rui Overall Stats'................ 13.6... 4.3... 1.2

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/austin-...
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/austin-...

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/rui-sta...
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/rui-sta...

High-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron prevent elite roster construction by turning everyone into spot-up shooter and destroying teammates (see stats above).

Otoh, expert jumpshooters allow the ball to move and elevate chemistry/teammates, so guys like Pippen, Grant, BJ, Woolridge, Oakley, Vincent and others played to capacity alongside MJ (near career highs)

The "assisted rate" stat began in 1997 when possession-tracking began, which allowed tracking of how often field goals were assisted by teammates (assisted), versus unassisted field goals/solo missions (unassisted)...

Solo missions or unassisted field goals require dribbling, and the dribbling component is why point guards are the position/skillset that is rarely assisted on their field goals (low assisted rate)... Every player in history with a career assisted rate below 40% is a primary ball-handler, such as Lillard, Luka, Lebron, etc... These unassisted buckets are harmless at lower scoring levels like Magic, Nash or Haliburton... However, high-scoring ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron and Harden have high volume of unassisted buckets that make teammates stand in spot-up roles more often, which lowers their assists and causes low team assists.

Since high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron have scoring style and skillset that turns everyone into spot-up shooter, they prevent elite roster construction and therefore can't be the leading scorer for the best basketball (dynasty or dominant champion).. Since high-scoring ball-dominators can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can (bigs & jumpshooters), which puts all high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron outside the top 10 all-time.

Interestingly, Phil/Tex didn't know about assisted rate in the 90's because the stat didn't exist - I believe this was part of the reason they thought that MJ wouldn't be scoring champ in the triangle.. They figured that Jordan's 37 ppg meant that he had the ball too much and the triangle would take it out of his hands, but they didn't realize that the majority of MJ's buckets were already assisted, so his game suited the triangle quite well.. Not surprisingly, MJ won with the triangle basically right away and was scoring champ 7 of 7 times in the triangle... Otoh, it's the low-assisted players (primary ball-handler skillsets) that had no role in the triangle and were never used in the triangle - they're the ones that would have issues taking the ball out of their hands and turning their unassisted/solo missions into assisted buckets.

So the 3rd/4th options score more when the #1/2 option is out ... groundbreaking stuff

Klay averaged 18.7 ppg without Curry from 12-24', and 19.6 overall, so he averaged more alongside Curry... Furthermore, Murray averaged 16.9 without Jokic and 17.7 with him, or Pau averaged 18.3 as a Laker without Kobe, and the same with Kobe in the lineup... Meanwhile, Pippen's saw his PPG + APG decline in 94' (22.0 + 5.6) from his highs alongside Jordan (21.0 + 7.0).

Accordingly, highly-assisted 1st options like Curry, MJ, Kobe and Jokic (jumpshooters or bigs) allow the ball to move and therefore great chemistry/teammate performance, so teammates play to capacity alongside them (at or near career highs)... Otoh, ball-dominators turn everyone into spot-up shooter, thereby cratering Reaves and Rui as the stats show above, and also their predecessors like Bosh, Love, Jamison, Kuzma, Ingram, Hughes, Westbrook, Rose, IT, Drummond, Dinwiddie, D-Lo and many more (too many to list everyone that he cratered).. By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, high-scoring ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction and therefore always need more help.

Almost like you haven't heard of variance, you always just look at small samples that support your claims ignore anything that doesn't.

Maybe you missed it or I wrote it poorly, but those are massive samples of Klay, Pau, Murray and Pippen performing the same with and without their 1st option, while Lebron's teammates crater alongside him because he turns then into spot-up shooter - only high-scoring ball-dominators have this horrible effect of reducing teammates' assists and turning them into spot-up shooter, which of course prevents elite roster construction and high average ranking in team assists.. This is the Achilles heel of high-scoring ball-dominators because every series loss of Lebron's playoff career shows deficits in team assists, except the goat choke (11' Finals).

Sigh, more nonsense and lies I see:

This is so stupid. Not worthy of a response.

"Second leading scorer carried by AD"...27.7 ppg versus 27.6 ppg (10.8 APG v 3.5 APG)

He won two titles with Wade and went to four straight finals, so I don't know what you're talking about here at all.

You don't watch basketball at all, as you admit yourself.

I don't know why you keep saying 1 for 4 with Wade.

"Not even top 100 all-time"...you find ways to plumb new depths.

Well, at least they seem to watch basketball!!

Except for the seven seconds or less, the Suns would be the slowest-paced team in the NBA today. The NBA is way quicker-paced today than 20, 30, or 40 years ago. This is not a point of debate.

Objective nonsense, disproven by simply watching the tape.

You're some man to talk about cherry-picking!! :p

The bottom line is that LeBron has transcended two dramatically different eras in NBA history and is managing an autumn to his career that dwarves what old yellow eyes could pump fake his way to with the Wizards.

I have no idea what fallguy is actually arguing now, nor do I care really, but Pippen from ‘91 to ‘93 with Jordan on the team averaged about a 5.3 BPM. His ppg was 19.1. I am not normalizing by minutes nor games but this is going to be close enough to the exact calculations.

‘94 to ‘95 (almost entirely without Jordan except for 17 games in 1995), Pippen’s average BPM was about 7.6 and his ppg was about 21.7.

‘96 to ‘98 again with Jordan, Pippen’s BPM averaged 5.7 and his ppg was about 19.6.

The conclusion is obviously that Pippen was a far more productive and efficient player on a per minute basis without Jordan than with. He was the first option rather than the second, so anyone who knows anything about basketball would have predicted this.

The same obviously happens to LeBron because when he’s on the court, first options become second options, and second options become third.

The reason fallguy has been coming to a different conclusion is because he cherry picks literally every single data point that favors Jordan and disfavors LeBron, only taking a tiny subset of the data to skew towards whatever conclusion he’s trying to reach. He does not understand stats at all and doesn’t know what a population mean is. Oh also he’s clinically insane.

It's well-known that the defensive component of BPM (DBPM) is based on team defense, aka BPM includes team defense, so BPM is the worst stat and the most inaccurate to make a point about the change in production rate... In addition to being influenced by team performance, BPM is also primarily a steals-counter, so the 1 SPG increase that Pippen saw without MJ accounts for his change BPM.. Finally, we're only looking at the change in offensive production, while BPM includes defense, so it's irrelevant on many levels.

Otoh, if we look at every other metric that actually measures his pure production without incorporating team performance, we see that Pippen was basically the same in PPG, TS, APG, PER, WS, or OBPM, and often lower without MJ (APG, TS, WS, OBPM).

Ultimately, history shows that Klay, Pippen, Pau and Murray play at or near career highs (capacity) alongside highly-assisted skillsets like bigs or jumpshooters, while the teammates of high-scoring ball-dominators are turned into spot-up shooter, which craters Reaves, Rui, Bosh, Love, Jamison, Hughes, IT, Rose, Clarkson, Dinwiddie, Drummond, D-Lo, Westbrook, and many more.

All these words, and you didn’t show Pippen’s average offensive BPM for the years in question. Why not? Lmfao. Must be higher with Jordan than without and you totally just forgot to post it.

Anyway, interesting point about defensive bpm incorporating team performance because that means the team’s defensive performance was better without Jordan according to this stat. And according to you as well now, I guess. Until your next post where you argue two completely opposed and contradictory things, I mean. (Here goes!)

MJ carried Pippen in every series by 10-30 ppg, so it matters that Lebron was outscored by teammates in many series and numerous playoff runs.

The goat choke and record loss BOOKENDED a win against babies and a teammate bailout - this is the worst anyone could do after putting the top 3 PER's in the league on 1 team..

It's goat underachievement, just like 1 for 6 with AD and 1 for 4 with Love, or 1 sixty-win season with 2 all-star teammates from 11-17'.

I'm quoting guys that played and watch the game - THEY'RE THE ONES that are saying it's just threes and layups in a spaced-out, hands-off beginner format...

They're the ones saying that zero pure scoring ability is required in the spaced-out format, so the best players come from tougher formats internationally.. American hoops is dead thanks to Lebron - his "decision" ushered in an era of less competitiveness that included colluding, load management and easy-scoring beginner format that can't produce the best players anymore.

Again, this is what everyone is saying

Yeah you do lol.. Stop lying

1 for 6 with AD isn't top 100 all-time....

100 guys would've done better than 1 for 6 with AD... Or 1 for 4 with Love and Wade (edit: Allen miracle).

Today's game is slower-paced but possessions end sooner due to threes, and players don't have to run the full court because of threes - they can saunter from 3-point line to 3-point line and barely run the court.

It's a slow, boring game, despite the higher possessions.

He literally couldn't handle it and needed to team up with all his opponents...

He couldn't win the East in 09' and 10' as a historic favorite each time, so he put the top 3 PER's in the league on 1 team.. He's a clown show and a joke that mostly lost despite stacking his team.. Yes, you should be embarrassed for falling for the fraud - a player that never evolved past AAU ball-dominance and is therefore the biggest loser in NBA history, is actually purported as the GOAT - and you fell for it... Good thing that I'm here to set you straight, otherwise you would live in blissful ignorance for the rest of your life... Your welcome 😀