LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
vs.
Lukas career is comparable to Iverson's or Dwight's through 7 years and nowhere near Jordan's since Jordan had developed a 3-peat team by his 7th season and far better production rates/stats than Luka.
Every time I think you can't say something dumber you somehow manage to. It's an artform.
AD never managed to make the Lakers his team; that's just the reality.
Your constant contention that it's all AD is nonsense. It is not supported by fact.
AD led Lebron in scoring for the 2020 title run, so Lebron is carried compared to Jordan, who led Pippen by 10-30 PPG in every series.
There's never been a player turn a lottery team to champion in 1 year like AD did, so it's a goat season and it's been AD's team, but the Klutch media simply misreports it.
Lebron carrying the talent-deficient 2007 Cavs to the finals dwarves anything MJ was able to do in his early career.
Jordan would've 3-peated with the East all-star center and an acquisition that was better than 1990 Pippen:
05' HUGHES...... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP... 1st team All-defense
90' PIPPEN........ 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP... No All-defense
Lebron's 06-10' Cavs had more all-star help, more scoring help and better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.
And Lebron wasn't all-defense until 09', so the #4 ranking in 07' was due to his decorated defensive help.
It is beyond question at this point that LeBron James has had a better career than Michael Jordan. Their respective peaks and Championship runs are a discussion around context—a discussion that will continue for years to come, with ever more people still alive believing LeBron was better.
The comparison of winning is simple - Lebron has a losing record with preseason favorites (3-4), Finals teams (4-6), all-star teammates (4-7), 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), and 3 losses with homecourt, while the goat standard is to never lose in any of these scenarios.
And the stats are simple... Lebron has higher defensive rebounds (positional stat), ball-dominance and APG (lower team assists), and also TS (drive-heavy game), while Jordan beats Lebron in everything else, such as PPG, OREB, SPG, BPG, FT's, turnovers, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, plus-minus, raptor, possessions used (usage), efficiency on those possessions (ORTG), cluch-time production & efficiency, jumpshooting efficiency (ball movement), teammate development, chemistry, winning.
TLDR: Lebron never reached Jordan's levels of winning or individual dominance.
The only dynasty that wasn't a super-team
MJ had the least all-star help ever, so his teams required goat PER, PPG and domination to win .
Fidstar and Matt conceded already.
It's statistical fact that high-scoring ball-dominators reduce teammates' assists while increasing their assisted rate and spot up roles.... By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction, so they can't be the 1st option for dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball), aka 0 for 12).
It means that rookie Luka was gifted a championship coach in Rick Carlisle and champion all-stars like Kyrie, while Jordan received a 1st time nobody coach in Phil Jackson and an 8 PPG rookie that needed to be developed.
Every time I think you can't say something dumber you somehow manage to. It's an artform.
The 91' Bulls were the most dominant champion ever and about to 3-peat, so that's better development after 7 seasons than having a one-off Finals and getting destroyed like Iverson, Luka, Kidd, or Dwight.. They were all destroyed in their one-offs, while MJ destroyed Magic and began a 3-peat.
So you guys are just delusional and can't accept facts
But you WILL accept Lebron and Luka being a similar catastrophie to Lebron-Westbrook.. You won't escape that.
1) MJ won 3-peated with 1 star, so he would destroy any team in history with a 2nd star like Lebron enjoyed... Ultimately, MJ had 1 star and Lebron had 2 but still won less.
2) Lebron was gifted 5 ready-made superstars, while MJ was forced to develop his best teammates from single-digit rookie status...
3) Lebron entered the league with the East All-star center and an acquisition that was better than 1990 Pippen, yet he couldn't win anything with this cast, let alone 3-peat or win 70 games.
4) There's never been a player with 6 straight preseason favorites or a sidekick outplay the league MVP.. The media's trick was pretending that this unprecedented advantage wasn't something that needed to be overcome with another unprecedented advantage (KD's Warriors).. The media pretended that Lebron had a normal team and KD came along and stacked the deck, but Lebron already had a stacked deck, so KD was only responding.
The fact that Luka was traded and WON'T get the max proves me correct that ball-dominators aren't worth it - the league has woken up to what I've known for years, so now the MARKET proves me correct, in addition to the historical record of ball-dominators perennially-losing with every cast..
It's because ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction by turning everyone into spot-up shooter - they literally reduce everyone's assists and increase their assisted rate, so it's statistical fact that they impose spot-up roles upon teammates, thereby preventing elite roster construction.
But go ahead and ignore the market and the historical record of ball-dominators perennially-losing.. I would've quit this long ago if the unfolding historical record hadn't backed up everything that I've ever said, aka 0 for 12.. (ball-dominators are 0 for 12 in being the leading scorer for the best basketball, i.e. dynasty or dominant champion).
Carry on
Luka's numbers were trash? jfc.
You know you can think MJ is GOAT and still say something nice about someone else.
By not admitting what Luka has done is impressive, just makes every argument you make pointless.
Like, it doesn't matter what someone who thinks the earth is flat says about anything else.
He says nice things about Larry Hughes all the time(well only 2005 Larry Hughes, the rest of his career doesn't exist), and Jamison, Love, Kyrie, Wade etc. While trying to convince people that Jordan played with G-leaguers.
Luka's numbers were trash? jfc.
You know you can think MJ is GOAT and still say something nice about someone else.
By not admitting what Luka has done is impressive, just makes every argument you make pointless.
Like, it doesn't matter what someone who thinks the earth is flat says about anything else.
Stats from the Eastern or Western Playoffs to Make the Finals
2024 Kyrie........... 22.8 on 59.3 TS... 16.7 gmsc
1993 Pippen....... 19.5 on 53.0 TS... 14.3 gmsc
1996 Pippen....... 17.6 on 49.6 TS... 16.6 gmsc
1997 Pippen....... 18.8 on 51.9 TS... 13.2 gmsc
1998 Pippen....... 17.3 on 49.9 TS... 14.9 gmsc
1992 Pippen....... 18.9 on 53.8 TS... 17.6 gmsc
Luka and Kyrie's run to the Finals last year wasn't as impressive as Jordan actually winning with less help or guys that made the Finals with 1-star teams like Dwight, Iverson, or Kidd.
05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D
He says nice things about Larry Hughes all the time(well only 2005 Larry Hughes, the rest of his career doesn't exist), and Jamison, Love, Kyrie, Wade etc. While trying to convince people that Jordan played with G-leaguers.
Hughes sacrificed his prime for bron-ball and we never heard from him again... But he was coming into his own with 2 good seasons alongside an expert jumpshooter like Arenas, who can play off-ball enough for a combo guard like Hughes to get off.
Again, Lebron is the only constant in the bad fits wtih Hughes, Love, Bosh, Ingram, Westbrook, Kuzma, Rose, Clarkson, IT, D-Lo, Jamison, Drummond, Dinwiddie, Christian Wood, Montrezl Harrell, and many more.
Ultimately history shows that Lebron never "carried" anything because he entered the league with the East all-star center on his team and made the playoffs by acquiring a player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball (previous post).
Luka is will almost certainly remain a massive ball-dominator, so Lebron will have to turn into Karl Malone to win a title with him - this requires being assisted on 80% of his shots... lmao... Lebron has never been assisted on more than 41% in his prime and recently he reached around 45% by standing and resting more.. So good luck and I wouldn't bet too much money on this one.. Again, assisted rate is a great way to better understand a player's skillset, how they score, and how this affects teammates, chemistry and brand of ball.
Man you guys are your in depth stats
Like are you sure the stats are relevant, the game changes.
Perfect example hockey. In the 80's, 70 goals was attainable.
Not anymore. Doesn't mean Gretzky is so much better than McDavid.
If McDavid played in that era he would scorch it.
But MJ is the goat.
I don't care about Lebrons longevity. He had huge money already signed before
playing his first nba game. Had massive advantages to play longer. Apparnetly Lebron
was spending 1 million per year on his body like 15 years ago and that number has risen
to like 2+ million., Which Jordan couldn't spend seeing his first championships with bulls he only
made 1 million per (crazy ) not to mention the advantage of sports science.
I'll repeat what I said here long ago which I don't understand how u Lebron guys could even think to
defend it.
In his peak, MJ averaged 35 won the Scoring title, MVP, and won defensive player of the year (led league in steals)
Lebron has never done that, BEEN THE BEST OFFENSIVE PLAYER AND DEFENSIVE PLAYER AT THE SAME TIME
THAT IS LIKE MAYBE THE MOST IMPRESSIVE STAT IN ALL OF SPORTS NEVERMIND BASKETBALL
Your talking FREAK SHOW Lebron is actually probably too big & heavy to do this. This takes absurd conditioning
and absurd heart. Like willing to die for game heart. completely bonkers.
You guys comparing all there teammattes, like who cares they both had great teammattes no excuses for either of them.
So MJ also more championships more MVP's, more scoring titles, more more more in less time.
Jordan had 3 all stars supporting him in his first 3 peat. Got carried. Still almost got beaten by the 50 win Knicks. Would have been the greatest upset of all time.
[
If Lakers win this year FG might explode.
Jordan had 3 all stars supporting him in his first 3 peat. Got carried. Still almost got beaten by the 50 win Knicks. Would have been the greatest upset of all time.
[
BOSH.......... 11-time all-star & HOF
GRANT......... 1-time "korver" all-star
1) Shaq was swept with Horace and rich man's Pippen, plus 20 ppg snipers Nick Anderson & Dennis Scott - the most stacked team in the league.
2) Even if Luka and Lebron win, that will give Lebron 2 chips where he didn't lead the scoring for the title run, in addition to the 11' run... So Lebron's rings don't compare to Jordan's, since he has 2nd options chips, 3rd stars, sidekicks that made the Finals without him (Love, Kyrie, Wade), and sidekicks outplaying MVP's like Jokic, Curry and Dirk.
3) The Heat tenure proved that when prime Lebron has equal or greater help than MJ, he cannot 3-peat or win 70 games, so he cannot reach the top level.. The multiple tenures in Cleveland proved the same thing, or the Lakers tenure (1 for 6 with AD)... Since Lebron can't 3-peat or produce a dynasty regardless of cast, he's objectively inferior to MJ.
Sorry we are talking MJ vs Luka now.
LeBron being better than MJ has already been decided.
Since Luka would lead the scoring if they won, Lebron's chips would be vastly inferior to Jordan's based on 4 factors:
1) 3 entire title runs where Lebron didn't lead the scoring (11', 20', 25'), while Jordan led every series by 10-30 ppg
2) 3 chips with 3rd stars
3) sidekicks that made the Finals without him (Love, Kyrie, Wade)
4) sidekicks outplaying MVP's like Jokic, Curry and Dirk
Sorry we are talking MJ vs Luka now.
LeBron being better than MJ has already been decided.
I've already won... Even the market agrees with me that ball-dominators aren't worth the max.
High-scoring ball-dominators make it harder to win via low assist teams, and they're incapable of being the leading scorer for the best basketball, aka dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12).
Ultimately, Lebron and Luka dominate less than Jordan based on every statistical metric available, while also showing less skill (no off-ball), less clutch, and weaknesses like turnovers, FT's and ball-dominance (imposing spot-up roles). . They have zero teammate development, weak chemistry, weak loyalty/character/leadership, and weak defense.. Ultimately, their high-scoring, ball-dominant skillset of mostly unassisted buckets turns everyone into spot-up shooter, thereby preventing elite roster construction and causing a need to team-up.. It's quite pathetic.
oh wow this thread is still going
Especially since he announced that he has no fear about this season following the Luka trade.
Imagine if Bird carried Jordan to a title... That hurts Jordan's goat case, not helps it... Lebron getting carried to another title hurts his case, and failing to win every single year with Bird (Luka) is also a failure.
This is the obvious way to look at it but you're a victim of fraud, so you can't see clearly.. You go along with the idea that Luka and Lebron "need more help" and shouldn't be expected to win, which is laughable.. The only reason they need more help is because they're dumb ball-dominators with the worst chemistry ever... Otoh, MJ and Bird could win with anyone like Longley and Paxson - no one would say they need more help or make excuses for them.
Also, you guys act like high-scoring ball-dominators haven't won before... They win on rare occasion, but it requires teaming up with opponents and opposing franchise players.. They make it harder to win due to their low assist teams, and they're incapable of being the leading scorer for the best basketball, aka dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12).
The issue is that their high-scoring, ball-dominant skillset of mostly unassisted buckets turns everyone into spot-up shooter, thereby preventing elite roster construction or chemistry, and causing a need to team-up.. It's quite pathetic.
Especially since he announced that he has no fear about this season following the Luka trade.
Imagine if Bird carried Jordan to a title... That hurts Jordan's goat case, not helps it... Lebron getting carried to another title hurts his case, and failing to win every single year with Bird (Luka) is also a failure.
This is the obvious way to look at it but you're a victim of fraud, so you can't see clearly.. You go along with the idea that Luka and Lebron "need more help" and shouldn't be expected to win, which is laughable.. The only reason they need more help is because they're dumb ball-dominators with the worst chemistry ever... Otoh, MJ and Bird could win with anyone like Longley and Paxson - no one would say they need more help or make excuses for them.
Also, it doesn't matter if Luka and Lebron win because high-scoring ball-dominators have won before... They win on rare occasion, but it requires teaming up with opponents and opposing franchise players.. They make it harder to win due to their low assist teams, and they're incapable of being the leading scorer for the best basketball, aka dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12).
The issue is that their high-scoring, ball-dominant skillset of mostly unassisted buckets turns everyone into spot-up shooter, thereby preventing elite roster construction or chemistry, and causing a need to team-up.. It's quite pathetic.
So even if LeBron wins, he loses. Got it.
I just don't see how getting carried to another title shows that he's as good as MJ, or anywhere near, since MJ always carried the load with 10-30 ppg margins over all teammates, plus goat defense.
And MJ actually has a 5 ppg margin over everyone in playoff history like like Durant, West, Lebron, Kobe, Hakeem, etc (50 game min).
History shows Lebron had 2 Pippen's in Miami and also with Kyrie/Love... Yet he mostly lost and failed to 3-peat or win 70 in either tenure, thus proving less capable.. Then he went 1 for 6 with AD, so he clearly can't achieve MJ's caliber regardless of cast, aka objectively inferior to MJ.
He doesn't have a 5ppg lead over luka...
Jordan is basically Luka except he could do everything in the air and was simply a better scorer (assisted scoring and sheer dominance/PPG).
Meanwhile, the defense, leadership and intangibles...I mean... I don't think I can articulate the extent of the gap - I'll be understating it
Due to these factors, MJ was unbeatable when he got the help that Luka had in the 24' Finals, while Luka is a one-off and his skillset deemed unsatisfactory for a max
