LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
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This will be a great test for bedwetting fallguy’s assisted fg % theory. Lakers are 28-19 right now; a 59.6 winning %. Having the two biggest ball dominators on one team should cause the biggest collapse in NBA history according to fallguy. And LeBron is 40 years old. The Lakers should miss the playoffs now with this much ball dominance on one team and way past his prime LeBron.
The story of Lebron's career is underachieving with ball-handlers like Hughes, Wade, IT, Rose, Westbrook, Ingram, and now Doncic.. Only the best shooters in the league avoid cratering (mo, kyrie).
Basically, Lebron has a bunch of failures, such as losses with multiple all-stars or -700 favorites, but only the GOAT failures get acknowledged, such as the 11' Finals or Westbrook debacle.. Lebron has to fail so spectacularly so that no one can ignore it... Fortunately, he doesn't disappoint and I look forward to this final goat debacle to end a career of goat debacles and catastrophic losses.
Dallas is the greatest team of all time now. Davis and Irving, who both carried LeBron to titles have teamed up. Unstoppable.
Dallas has solid centers, so AD can play the 4 spot, while they have shooters, wings and versatile players - aside from consistent health, they lack nothing.. Although someone must step up and be the fallguy when things go awry.
The story of Lebron's career is underachieving with ball-handlers like Hughes, Wade, IT, Rose, Westbrook, Ingram, and now Doncic.. Only the best shooters in the league avoid cratering (mo, kyrie).
Basically, Lebron has a bunch of failures, such as losses with multiple all-stars or -700 favorites, but only the GOAT failures get acknowledged, such as the 11' Finals or Westbrook debacle.. Lebron has to fail so spectacularly so that no one can ignore it... Fortunately, he doesn't disappoint and I loo
Yes, can’t wait for the Mavericks to roll through the playoffs with their newfound assisted fg% big and the Lakers to collapse and miss the playoffs because of ball dominators Luka and LeBron. Without the assisted field goals they’re easily a lottery team.
Dallas has solid centers, so AD can play the 4 spot, while they have shooters, wings and versatile players - aside from consistent health, they lack nothing.. Although someone must step up and be the fallguy when things go awry.
How much better do you think the Mavs are now that they got rid of one of the worst ball dominators in NBA history for a highly assisted big that has been carrying LeBron James the past 5 seasons? Do you think they’ll sweep Boston in the finals or do you think the Celtics could take a game or two? I personally think they could sweep due to the drastic shift in assisted fg%.
Yes, can’t wait for the Mavericks to roll through the playoffs with their newfound assisted fg% big and the Lakers to collapse and miss the playoffs because of ball dominators Luka and LeBron. Without the assisted field goals they’re easily a lottery team.
Well, it's quite interesting because it appears that the Lakers were coming into their own before the trade.. Indeed, the inherent chemistry that comes with having a highly-assisted player as 1st option was starting to shine through - this is the first year that AD led the Lakers in scoring since 2020... But now, everything has changed, so the championship chemistry and momentum that the Lakers were building has now been shipped to Dallas.. It's a shame for Lebron fans because his big game in MSG could've been a nice capper before AD returns and the team really starts pouring it on the league... But oh well... What could've been..
Well, it's quite interesting because it appears that the Lakers were coming into their own before the trade.. Indeed, the inherent chemistry that comes with having a highly-assisted player as 1st option was starting to shine through - this is the first year that AD led the Lakers in scoring since 2020... But now, everything has changed, so the championship chemistry and momentum that the Lakers were building has now been shipped to Dallas.. It's a shame for Lebron fans because his big game in MS
Hmm, that’s a good point actually. It’s interesting how LeBron, even at 40 years old, can slide into a point guard role and still average nearly 25 ppg. Seems to be a matter of team makeup and scheme, and LeBron isn’t inherently limited by skillset even at 40 years old. Looks like he can, in fact, assist others and still average a lot of points. A true hybrid player than can fit in anywhere. What a great post.
How much better do you think the Mavs are now that they got rid of one of the worst ball dominators in NBA history for a highly assisted big that has been carrying LeBron James the past 5 seasons? Do you think they’ll sweep Boston in the finals or do you think the Celtics could take a game or two? I personally think they could sweep due to the drastic shift in assisted fg%.
History provides the answer... We watched a massive ball-dominator like Luka take 7 years to develop........ nothing..... not a damn thing.... They made the Finals last year, but it was obvious luck due to Jokic's unexpected upset - now they're barely .500, which is similar to the 08' Cavs after their one-off in 07'... Accordingly, history shows that it always collapses for ball-dominators - they cannot build sustainable chemistry, brand of ball, or elite roster construction because they turn everyone into spot-up shooter.... It's the schizophrenia of ball-domination - doing the same thing over and over with similar results (underwhelming team performance).
Let’s say you, or history, or whoever, were to quantify this answer. What would it be? Like a number, or something less vague. This will be a great test for your theory of assisted fg% fallguy. Don’t be shy. Give us something to refer back to. Something concrete so you can gloat. No need to keep being humble. Here it is… your one shining moment.
Hmm, that’s a good point actually. It’s interesting how LeBron, even at 40 years old, can slide into a point guard role and still average nearly 25 ppg. Seems to be a matter of team makeup and scheme, and LeBron isn’t inherently limited by skillset even at 40 years old. Looks like he can, in fact, assist others and still average a lot of points. A true hybrid player than can fit in anywhere. What a great post.
Imagine if Luka was teaming up with Karl Malone instead of Lebron.... Malone is assisted on
of his shots, so he never has the ball and has goat fits with ball-handlers like Luka.
Otoh, Lebron is the only high-scorer in history that dominates the ball as much as Luka, so his low-assisted rates and unassisted scoring will leave Luka standing around, and vice versa.. It will be a horrible fit.
Infact, they might be the most exploitable team ever as opponents use the 2014 Spurs defensive strategy - the Spurs knew that Wade and Lebron were bad spot-up shooters, so they made them take spot-ups by leaving them open (helping off them) when a teammate drove - this is well-documented in SB Nation's legendary article "Solving the Lebron and Wade dilemma".
Teams will do this to Lebron and Luka too - they will help off Lebron when Luka drives and put Lebron in an off-the-catch/assisted situation that he isn't elite at - he'll normally turn this optimal assisted situation into suboptimal ball-domination by starting a live dribble instead of acting quickly upon the catch like a great off-ball player would, i.e. Curry, MJ, Jokic, Malone.... Accordingly, Luka and Lebron will be a horrible fit.
Let’s say you, or history, or whoever, were to quantify this answer. What would it be? Like a number, or something less vague. This will be a great test for your theory of assisted fg% fallguy. Don’t be shy. Give us something to refer back to. Something concrete so you can gloat. No need to keep being humble. Here it is… your one shining moment.
AD's 5.9 assisted buckets will be replaced by Luka's 3.4 assisted buckets, so that means the Lakers assists per game will decline from 26.5 to 24.0, which would put them at 26th in the league (14th currently).
Let’s say you, or history, or whoever, were to quantify this answer. What would it be? Like a number, or something less vague. This will be a great test for your theory of assisted fg% fallguy. Don’t be shy. Give us something to refer back to. Something concrete so you can gloat. No need to keep being humble. Here it is… your one shining moment.
Ultimately, we know the math.. We know that high-scoring ball-dominators have large volume of unassisted buckets that leaves everyone standing around, which reduces teammates' assists while increasing their assisted rate or spot-up role.. By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, elite roster construction is impossible for high-scoring ball-dominators, so they cannot be the leading scorer for "the best basketball", specifically dynasties and dominant champions (0 for 12).
Since ball-dominators can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can (bigs & jumpshooters), which puts Lebron and all ball-dominators outside of the top 10 all-time.. Specifically, anyone can select who they feel are the best jumpshooters and bigs in history and put them above all ball-dominators like Lebron.. So a hypothetical top 10 could be: MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar - that's a top 13 with ball-dominators bringing up the rear.
In addition to their inability to be 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions), high-scoring ball-dominators make it harder to win titles in general because of the aforementioned lowering of teammate assists and low assist teams, versus the high-assist teams and ball movement associated with the average title team.. Ultimately, the suboptimal style of ball-dominators underachieves rosters the most, such as Lebron going 3-4 with preseason favorites, 4-7 with all-star teammates, 4-6 with Finals teams, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, and 3 losses with homecourt, while the GOAT standard is to never lose in any of these scenarios.
Yeah, obviously Lakers do this for the long term, post-LeBron period. Slight increase odds in this season really minor in the scheme of why this trade was great for the Lakers.
Luka has had 6 full seasons and made the Finals once and the WCF another time. He's 25
You can't say Luka has achieved nothing.
MJ had won about 50% of his games and lost the same amount of first round series than total series won at that point.
Lakers are winning it all this year after they acquire Vucevic from the Bulls.
LeBron and Luka both have 2800 ELO Basketball IQ -- they'll be able to figure out how to play together. Luka even plays chess!
This relieves all stress for me regarding this season - the Lakers might've been coming into their own before this trade, but now this trade ensures that they won't contend and Lebron isn't the best player even if they do.
LeBron at 40, still causing the haters anxiety and stress. Quite a different runout to old yellow eyes pump faking to two failed regular seasons eh?
Luka has had 6 full seasons and made the Finals once and the WCF another time. He's 25
You can't say Luka has achieved nothing.
MJ had won about 50% of his games and lost the same amount of first round series than total series won at that point.
By Jordan's 6th season, he had essentially built the team that would begin a 3-peat the following season in Year 7 - so MJ had already built the goat team by the time he got to Luka's current place (Year 7).
Contrastingly, Luka has built nothing and a trash team, despite having 3 times the all-star teammates and 2 guys with All-NBA resumes as well (Brunson, Kyrie, Porzingas).
So again, Luka has achieved nothing and built a trash team despite more all-star teammates than MJ, while MJ built the GOAT team by the end of his 6th season and Year 7 (Luka's current position).
And we know exactly why ball-dominators like Luka cannot build anything... By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction, so they can't be 1st option for the best basketball (dynasty or dominant champion), while also producing low-assist teams that make it harder to win titles in general.
By Jordan's 6th season, he had essentially built the team that would begin a 3-peat the following season in Year 7 - so MJ had already built the goat team by the time he got to Luka's current place (Year 7).
Contrastingly, Luka has built nothing and a trash team, despite having 3 times the all-star teammates and 2 guys with All-NBA resumes as well (Brunson, Kyrie, Porzingas).
So again, Luka has achieved nothing and built a trash team despite more all-star teammates than MJ, while MJ built the GOAT
MJ didn't "build" anything. Phil Jackson and Jerry Krause were building. Michael Jordan was a player who succeeded within a single system, coach, with the same no.2. We know he couldn't build teams because the Wizards happened. We know he lacked agency over his career because Jerry Krause told him when the Bulls were over, and that was that.
Yeah, obviously Lakers do this for the long term, post-LeBron period. Slight increase odds in this season really minor in the scheme of why this trade was great for the Lakers.
D'Aaron Fox just teamed up with Wemby, thus giving the West another contender, so the Lebron era is over.
Consider that Luka and Lebron already have a bad team that needs more help... Let that sink in... These dumb ball-dominators need a big, but why aren't stiffs like Zaza Pachulia or Luc Longley enough for Luka/Lebron to be a dynasty????.. Why was that enough for Curry and MJ, but not Luka/Lebron?
It's because great jumpshooters like Curry and MJ are frequently off-ball and score assisted buckets, so they have great chemistry with running mates like Pippen/Klay and can win with trash bigs... Otoh, Luka and Lebron have bad chemistry together as fellow ball-dominators, so they need a star big.. It's quite pathetic and literally proves the inferiority of the ball-dominant skillset... Meanwhile, the need for a big proves that Lebron isn't a big and doesn't play 5 positions, aka LeFraud.
Another example would be a true big like Malone, who had great chemistry with ball-handlers and therefore could achieve a great team with a trash big (Ostertag)... So again, it's confirmed that Lebron isn't a big himself (or great jumpshooter), so he can't have great chemistry with a ball-handler and therefore win with a trash big..
MJ didn't "build" anything. Phil Jackson and Jerry Krause were building. Michael Jordan was a player who succeeded within a single system, coach, with the same no.2. We know he couldn't build teams because the Wizards happened.
Luka entered the league with HOF Rick Carlisle as his coach but proceeded to be lottery or 1st Round loser for the first 3 years of his career, while producing a team that is barely .500 after 7 seasons.
Otoh, no team had used the triangle to win titles before Jordan won 6 and then inspired a copy-cat to win another 5.. Otherwise, the triangle never won.. Once MJ won with the triangle, every team in the league tried it and failed.
And MJ could effectively carry the "star" category (scoring), so Krause could surround him with cheap defenders (a GM's dream) instead of seeking the expensive scoring help (star help) required by Lebron's low chemistry skillset.
We know he lacked agency over his career because Jerry Krause told him when the Bulls were over, and that was that.
Who cares - this has nothing to do with the goat debate.
We can just look at Lebron's career to see that he played with a million all-stars, a million HOF's, and a million All-NBA players, yet he only won 4 chips in 22 years and mostly lost with every team and cast (never a great team)... It's pathetic that some people claim this is the best basketball that they've ever seen.
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Luka entered the league with HOF Rick Carlisle as his coach but proceeded to be lottery or 1st Round loser for the first 3 years of his career, while producing a team that is barely .500 after 7 seasons.
This is a non sequitur response to my contention that Jordan didn't build teams and had no agency over the clubs/rosters he played with. Nonetheless, Luka has done more by this stage of his career than Jordan, which isn't up for debate.
Otoh, no team had used the triangle to win titles before Jordan won 6 and then inspired a copy-cat to win another 5.. Otherwise, the triangle never won.. Once MJ won with the triangle, every team in the league tried it and failed.
So, teams not coached by Phil Jackson were unable to run Phil Jackson's system correctly. And Jordan was such a unique, special snowflake that Phil Jackson didn't skip a beat once he came to the Lakers and just continued dominating the sport.
This doesn't help your case at all.
And MJ could effectively carry the "star" category (scoring), so Krause could surround him with cheap defenders (a GM's dream) instead of seeking the expensive scoring help (star help) required by Lebron's low chemistry skillset.
This area of focus you have spammed thousands of posts on is pure nonsense, so whatever.
Who cares - this has nothing to do with the goat debate.
We can just look at Lebron's career to see that he played with a million all-stars, a million HOF's, and a million All-NBA players, yet he only won 4 chips in 22 years and mostly lost with every team and cast (never a great team)... It's pathetic that some people claim this is the best basketball that they've ever seen.
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It has a lot to do with the GOAT debate. It's a huge reason the discussion is so vociferous—LeBron claimed complete agency over his career, and old-school fans hate that. MJ / Barkley et al. could not have conceived of this control over where and with whom they played, etc. Old-school fans will say that the decision and how players construct their contracts and manage where they play has "ruined" the sport. One of the Lakers trade subplots is Genie and Pelinka laying down a marker that Klutch Sports is no longer running the show. But imagine that - for a way of understanding the moves around LeBron to be around the power his sports agency wields across the league. Indeed, the Lakers might choose to trade LeBron now, but it isn't their decision; he leaves only if he wants to.
MJ was told by owners / GMs what the tick-tock was. He could not influence the decision when they decided the Bulls Dynasty was over. When he retired the second time, he was surprised when an owner told him he was done as GM. Yet there is all this endless psychobabble about how MJ dominated his opponents, controlled everything, etc. Lebron is somehow at once "passive" / "soft" but also an overly controlling "LeGM" blamed for every personnel move throughout his career.
MJ won with Jackson / Pippen around him, that's it. He lost with every other coach and no.2. He had a free hand to build a team with Washington and the luxury of him playing on the minimum, and they couldn't even make the playoffs. These facts matter to this debate. All the talk about MJ's "aura" and control of the sport exists within a narrow prism. Sure, boomers like that prism where athletes are just athletes and all the better if they aren't too uppity about it. But we now can see the expanded scope players can bring to their own story. How would MJ have added to the Bull's legacy if he had more control?
The more extended analysis pieces when LeBron's career is finally over will highlight how he completely overhauled the power balance in the sport. MJ was weak once he reached his mid-thirties and was discarded like every older athlete in sports history was before and after him, LeBron and Brady excepted. He could not bend his club to his will past his prime. When Krause lost Jackson, he decided it was time to blow up the team, and MJ couldn't conceive of anything to do about it. At 40, playing at a replacement level, it was clear he needed to retire, and he was immediately removed from the franchise he thought he would continue with as GM.
The GOAT took complete agency over his career and redefined the balance of power in his sport. He helped create a dominant sports agency that gave him leverage against the GMs and owners of his teams. And when he's ready, he will retire on his terms. Not as a broken husk of himself unable to move the needle on or off the court.
Imagine if Luka was teaming up with Karl Malone instead of Lebron.... Malone is assisted on
of his shots, so he never has the ball and has goat fits with ball-handlers like Luka.Otoh, Lebron is the only high-scorer in history that dominates the ball as much as Luka, so his low-assisted rates and unassisted scoring will leave Luka standing around, and vice versa.. It will be a horrible fit.
Infact, they might be the most exploitable team ever as opponents use the 2014 Spurs defensive strategy
You must have responded to the wrong post because I was talking about how when LeBron played with Anthony Davis he was able to feed Davis, a highly assisted post player, as the first option and still average 24 ppg. And you admit this worked, which proves that LeBron can integrate into such a scheme (because he literally did it) and it’s not a skill limitation.
AD's 5.9 assisted buckets will be replaced by Luka's 3.4 assisted buckets, so that means the Lakers assists per game will decline from 26.5 to 24.0, which would put them at 26th in the league (14th currently).
What if Luka makes more assists than Davis? What would that do to the math?
Ultimately, we know the math.. We know that high-scoring ball-dominators have large volume of unassisted buckets that leaves everyone standing around, which reduces teammates' assists while increasing their assisted rate or spot-up role.. By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, elite roster construction is impossible for high-scoring ball-dominators, so they cannot be the leading scorer for "the best basketball", specifically dynasties and dominant champions (0 for 12).
Since ball-dominators can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can (bigs & jumpshooters), which puts Lebron and all ball-dominators outside of the top 10 all-time.. Specifically, anyone can select who they feel are the best jumpshooters and bigs in history and put them above all ball-dominators like Lebron.. So a hypothetical top 10 could be: MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar - that's a top 13 with ball-dominators bringing up the rear.
In addition to their inability to be 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions), high-scoring ball-dominators make it harder to win titles in general because of the aforementioned lowering of teammate assists and low assist teams, versus the high-assist teams and ball movement associated with the average title team.. Ultimately, the suboptimal style of ball-dominators underachieves rosters the most, such as Lebron going 3-4 with preseason favorites, 4-7 with all-star teammates, 4-6 with Finals teams, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, and 3 losses with homecourt, while the GOAT standard is to never lose in any of these scenarios.
This is a lot of words that don’t answer the question. We have a terrible ball dominator in Luka who was traded for a highly assisted post player and first option that carried LeBron James. What I’m asking is:
Does this make the Mavericks better? I think you would answer yes to this but correct me if I am wrong.
How much better? In wins or win percentage please. Also playoff record. They easily made the finals last year winning the WCF 4-1. This was a massive, massive upgrade according to you (think of the assisted field goals). What’s your predicted improvement for them this year? Like put a number on it.
You must have responded to the wrong post because I was talking about how when LeBron played with Anthony Davis he was able to feed Davis, a highly assisted post player, as the first option and still average 24 ppg. And you admit this worked, which proves that LeBron can integrate into such a scheme (because he literally did it) and it’s not a skill limitation.
To clarify, this makes him a much, much better scorer that Magic Johnson (slightly worse playmaker), which worked fine for the Lakers in the 80’s. Or a better version of Durant (generally second option) with the Warriors. Or a version of Pippen that is twice the scorer and twice the passer.
I think this would probably work don’t you? Like I don’t think these teams would be bad lmao.
(Your mistake is thinking the only player that matters in the offense is the jump shooter, so in these hypotheticals you are replacing MJ or Curry with LeBron which isn’t how it works and isn’t what anyone is saying. There are 5 players on offense and all of them have an impact, not just the jump shooter. Yes, it’s amazing that I had to explain that 24,000 posts into this thread.)
D'Aaron Fox just teamed up with Wemby, thus giving the West another contender, so the Lebron era is over.
Consider that Luka and Lebron already have a bad team that needs more help... Let that sink in... These dumb ball-dominators need a big, but why aren't stiffs like Zaza Pachulia or Luc Longley enough for Luka/Lebron to be a dynasty????.. Why was that enough for Curry and MJ, but not Luka/Lebron?
It's because great jumpshooters like Curry and MJ are frequently off-ball and score assisted bucket
Why on earth are you citing the Karl Malone Utah Jazz as a great team?
Consider that Luka and Lebron already have a bad team that needs more help... Let that sink in... These dumb ball-dominators need a big, but why aren't stiffs like Zaza Pachulia or Luc Longley enough for Luka/Lebron to be a dynasty????.. Why was that enough for Curry and MJ, but not Luka/Lebron?
Fallguy LeBron is 40 years old and the Lakers coach is JJ Redick. Also the trade happened like yesterday. That might play into them not being a dynasty lmfao. Jesus Christ man I know you’re confident in what you’re saying but put at least a little logic behind it.
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1989 Playoffs
Bad Boys vs Playoff Opponents....... 11-0
Bad Boys vs Chicago Bulls................... 4-2*
* pippen missed closeout game 6, and averaged 9.7 on 40% overall in ECF (14/6/3 in regular season)
MJ was handed a lottery franchise in 1984 and built them to the 2nd-best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs before Phil arrived, despite not having any 15 ppg scorers or anyone in their prime.
We can measure how impressive this is by noting that Bird and Magic needed super-teams to barely hang with the Bad Boys, while MJ was equally-competitive with no help before Phil arrived.. Once MJ got 20 points and 5 assists from his sidekick like Kyrie got in the 24' Finals, he went 6/6 and became the goat.. Luka had this type of help 3 times already with Kyrie, Brunson and Porzingas, yet he has nothing to show for it.
Luka has done more by this stage of his career than Jordan, which isn't up for debate.
Team Development Progress By Year 7
2025 Luka....... nothing
1991 MJ........... 3-peat team
All-Star Help
2019 DIRK'.................... all-star
2020 PORZINGAS........ 20/10 and 2.0 blocks
2022 BRUNSON........... ultra-dominant playoffs
2025 KYRIE................... all-star
^^^ Luka lost with a bunch with all-stars, while MJ was 3-peating as soon as he got just 1, and this all-star was a lower producer than Luka's.
So, teams not coached by Phil Jackson were unable to run Phil Jackson's system correctly.
^^^^ Nonsense because it wasn't Phil's system - he borrowed it from Tex, who invented it in the 40's... And again, it had never won and was also universally hated by players... Only MJ could turn this hated and losing offense into a winner by achieving the goat stats that any losing offense requires... The triangle required 41 to 3-peat and 36/7/8 on 53% in the 91-93' Finals.
The GOAT debate is about who played basketball the best, not who was the best at colluding to stack their team and manufacture a fake resume to fool people
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