LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Yes, totally agree that Bron’s better. You know, I do think it’s pretty neat going back to old posts to show other posters agree with me. Such as right here.

I don’t think I would fully rely on such a scheme however. I prefer to have my arguments rely on facts, logic, and data. But I suppose when you’re arguing with a crazy person it’s a good change of pace. Maybe if the facts, logic, and data supported the crazy person’s position, they wouldn’t have to do this. Since they do not however, it is amusing to engage in such a behavior for a little while.

fallguy lost lol

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APPENDIX A

8 of 8 "DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION FOR THAT PLAYOFF RUN:

1. 2017 Warriors (16-1).............. DURANT

2. 2001 Lakers (15-1).................. SHAQ

3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)................... DUNCAN

4. 2024 Celtics (16-3)................. TATUM

5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4).............. JOKIC

6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)................... DUNCAN

7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).................. SHAQ

8. 1997 Bulls (15-4)..................... JORDAN

4 0f 4 "DYNASTIES" THAT MOSTLY WON FOR A MATERIAL STRETCH OF 5+ YEARS (I.E. 3 IN 5) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION:

1. CHICAGO BULLS..................... JORDAN

2. LOS ANGELES LAKERS)........... SHAQ

3. SAN ANTONIO SPURS............ DUNCAN

4. GSW WARRIORS...................... CURRY

^^^ 12 of 12 instances of dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball) required bigs or jumpshooters at 1st option.

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Appendix B

TEAM ASSIST RANKINGS FOR ALL PLAYERS WITH HIGH VOLUME OF UNASSISTED BUCKETS, AKA "BALL-DOMINATORS" (OVER 25 PPG AND LESS THAN 40% ASSISTED RATE), SINCE 1997:

2002 Kobe Bryant................ 9th in team assists
2003 Tracy McGrady............ 21st in team assists
2005 Tracy McGrady............ 16th in team assists
2006 Dwayne Wade............. 17th in team assists
2007 Dwayne Wade............. 18th in team assists
2008 Dwayne Wade............. 24th in team assists
2009 Dwayne Wade............. 18th in team assists
2010 Dwayne Wade............. 28th in team assists
2011 Dwayne Wade............. 26th in team assists
2005 Gilbert Arenas............. 28th in team assists
2006 Gilbert Arenas............. 25th in team assists
2007 Gilbert Arenas............. 23rd in team assists
2005 Kobe Bryant................ 22nd in team assists
2009 Kobe Bryant................ 2nd in team assists
2004 Allen Iverson............... 23rd in team assists
2005 Allen Iverson............... 21st in team assists
2006 Allen Iverson............... 18th in team assists
2007 Allen Iverson............... 21st in team assists
2008 Allen Iverson............... 3rd in team assists
2000 Grant Hill..................... 23rd in team assists
2010 Monta Ellis.................. 5th in team assists
2011 Derrick Rose................ 9th in team assists
2013 Carmelo....................... 30th in team assists
2014 Carmelo....................... 28th in team assists
2015 Westbrook................... 25th in team assists
2017 Westbrook................... 25th in team assists
2018 Westbrook................... 28th in team assists
2020 Westbrook................... 29th in team assists
2013 Harden......................... 6th in team assists
2014 Harden......................... 18th in team assists
2015 Harden.......................... 9th in team assists
2016 Harden.......................... 16th in team assists
2017 Harden.......................... 3rd in team assists
2018 Harden.......................... 26th in team assists
2019 Harden.......................... 28th in team assists
2020 Harden.......................... 29th in team assists
2016 Lillard............................ 21st in team assists
2017 Lillard............................ 23rd in team assists
2018 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2019 Lillard............................ 25th in team assists
2020 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2021 Lillard............................ 30th in team assists
2023 Lillard............................ 22nd in team assists
2017 Isiaih Thomas.............. 4th in team assists
2017 Demar Derozan........... 30th in team assists
2019 Kemba Walker.............. 24th in team assists
2020 Luka Doncic.................. 14th in team assists
2021 Luka Doncic.................. 26th in team assists
2022 Luka Doncic.................. 25th in team assists
2023 Luka Doncic.................. 28th in team assists
2024 Luka Doncic.................. 19th in team assists
2025 Luka Doncic.................. 18th in team assists
2020 Trae Young................... 17th in team assists
2021 Trae Young................... 19th in team assists
2022 Trae Young................... 15th in team assists
2023 Trae Young................... 18th in team assists
2024 Trae Young................... 16th in team assists
2017 Kyrie Irving................... 13th in team assists
2020 Kyrie Irving................... 15th in team assists
2021 Kyrie Irving................... 7th in team assists
2022 Kyrie Irving................... 10th in team assists
2023 Kyrie Irving................... 28th in team assists
2024 Kyrie Irving................... 19th in team assists
2021 Donovan Mitchell........ 23rd in team assists
2022 Donovan Mitchell........ 27th in team assists
2023 Donovan Mitchell........ 19th in team assists
2024 Donovan Mitchell........ 8th in team assists
2021 D'Aaron Fox.................. 12th in team assists
2023 D'Aaron Fox...................3rd in team assists
2024 D'Aaron Fox.................. 7th in team assists
2025 D'Aaron Fox.................. 15th in team assists
2022 Ja Morant...................... 6th in team assists
2023 Ja Morant...................... 9th in team assists
2024 Ja Morant...................... 27th in team assists
2023 Shai-Gilgeous............... 21st in team assists
2024 Shai-Gilgeous............... 11th in team assists
2025 Shai-Gilgeous............... 14th in team assists
2024 Jalen Brunson.............. 29th in team assists
2025 Jalen Brunson.............. 9th in team assists*
2024 Anthony Edwards........ 15th in team assists
2006 Lebron.......................... 24th in team assists
2007 Lebron.......................... 15th in team assists
2008 Lebron.......................... 25th in team assists
2009 Lebron.......................... 20th in team assists
2010 Lebron.......................... 6th in team assists
2011 Lebron.......................... 26th in team assists
2012 Lebron.......................... 21st in team assists
2015 Lebron.......................... 10th in team assists
2016 Lebron.......................... 13th in team assists
2017 Lebron.......................... 13th in team assists
2018 Lebron.......................... 12th in team assists
2019 Lebron.......................... 11th in team assists
2020 Lebron.......................... 10th in team assists
2021 Lebron.......................... 15th in team assists
2022 Lebron.......................... 17th in team assists

^^^^ 18.3 average team assist ranking for players with high volume of unassisted buckets, aka "high-scoring ball-dominators" of 25+ ppg and less than 40% assisted rate.

TEAM ASSIST RANKINGS FOR EVERY 25 PPG SCORER WITH 50% OR MORE ASSISTED RATE, SINCE 1997:

1997 Jordan...................... 2nd in team assists
1997 Mitch Richmond..... 14th in team assists
1997 Glen Rice.................. 4th in team assists
1997 Shaq......................... 11th in team assists
1997 Malone..................... 1st in team assists
1998 Jordan....................... 7th in team assists
1998 Shaq......................... 4th in team assists
1998 Malone..................... 2nd in team assists
1999 Shaq.......................... 7th in team assists
2000 Shaq.......................... 10th in team assists
2000 Vince Carter.............. 6th in team assists
2000 Allen Iverson............ 17th in team assists
2000 Malone...................... 3rd in team assists
2001 Shaq.......................... 9th in team assists
2001 Jerry Stackhouse...... 24th in team assists
2001 Vince Carter.............. 3rd in team assists
2001 Webber...................... 10th in team assists
2001 Pierce........................ 19th in team assists
2002 Shaq.......................... 9th in team assists
2002 Duncan..................... 27th in team assists
2002 Pierce........................ 20th in team assists
2003 Shaq......................... 5th in team assists
2003 Dirk........................... 9th in team assists
2005 Stoudamire.............. 3rd in team assists
2005 Dirk........................... 26th in team assists
2006 Dirk........................... 29th in team assists
2006 Ray Allen.................. 15th in team assists
2006 Michael Redd........... 8th in team assists
2006 Carmelo.................... 3rd in team assists
2007 Pierce........................ 25th in team assists
2007 Carmelo................... 5th in team assists
2007 Michael Redd........... 12th in team assists
2007 Yao Ming................... 16th in team assists
2007 Vince Carter.............. 3rd in team assists
2008 Carmelo................... 3rd in team assists
2008 Stoudamire............... 1st in team assists
2009 Durant...................... 20th in team assists
2009 Danny Granger....... . 9th in team assists
2009 Dirk............................ 8th in team assists
2010 Dirk............................ 3rd in team assists
2010 Monta Ellis................ 5th in team assists
2010 Durant....................... 23rd in team assists
2011 Stoudamire............... 15th in team assists
2011 Durant....................... 24th in team assists
2012 Kevin Love................. 24th in team assists
2013 Durant....................... 21st in team assists
2014 Kevin Love................. 5th in team assists
2015 Durant........................ 25th in team assists
2016 Durant........................ 10th in team assists
2016 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2016 Cousins....................... 4th in team assists
2017 Cousins....................... 16th in team assists
2017 AD................................ 12th in team assists
2017 Durant......................... 1st in team assists
2017 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2017 Karl Anthony.............. 9th in team assists
2018 Cousins....................... 3rd in team assists
2018 AD................................ 3rd in team assists
2018 Durant........................ 1st in team assists
2018 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2019 Curry........................... 1st in team assists
2019 AD................................ 3rd in team assists
2019 Embiid......................... 4th in team assists
2019 Bradley Beal............... 6th in team assists
2020 AD................................ 10th in team assists
2020 Karl-Anthony.............. 20th in team assists
2021 Jokic............................. 5th in team assists
2021 Durant......................... 7th in team assists
2021 Curry............................ 1st in team assists
2021 Embiid......................... 22nd in team assists
2021 Zion............................. 10th in team assists
2022 Jokic............................. 3rd in team assists
2022 Durant......................... 10th in team assists
2022 Curry............................ 5th in team assists
2022 Embiid......................... 21st in team assists
2023 Julius Randle............... 28th in team assists
2023 Durant......................... 13th in team assists
2023 Curry............................ 1st in team assists
2023 Embiid......................... 16th in team assists
2023 Zion............................. 11th in team assists
2023 Jaylen Brown............. 7th in team assists
2023 Markkenan................ 10th in team assists
2023 AD................................ 15th in team assists
2024 Jokic............................. 3rd in team assists
2024 Durant......................... 12th in team assists
2024 Curry............................ 4th in team assists
2024 Embiid......................... 24th in team assists

10.2 average for high-scorers that have high assisted rates (above 50%), and 18.3 average for high-scorers with low-assisted rates (below 40%).

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Appendix C

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LEBRON LOWERED ALL HIS TEAMMATES' ASSISTS, WHICH PRODUCED LOW-ASSIST TEAMS ON AVERAGE

ASSISTS PER GAME AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT LEBRON:

12-14' Kyrie............... 5.8 (no Lebron)
15-17' Kyrie............... 5.3
18-24' Kyrie............... 5.8 (no Lebron)

04-10' Bosh............... 2.2 (no Lebron)
11-14' Bosh............... 1.6
15-16' Bosh............... 2.3 (no Lebron)

11-14' Love................ 3.0 (no Lebron)
15-18' Love................ 2.1
19-21' Love................ 2.8 (no Lebron)

05-08' Mo................... 5.7 (no Lebron)
09-10' Mo................... 4.6
11-13' Mo................... 5.3 (no Lebron)

09-10' Chalmers........ 4.2 (no Lebron)
11-14' Chalmers........ 3.6

99-04' Snow................ 6.9 (no Lebron)
06-07' Snow................ 4.1

01-05' Hughes........... 3.8 (no Lebron)
06-08' Hughes........... 3.3

2018 Ingram.............. 3.9 (no Lebron)
2019 Ingram.............. 3.0
20-25' Ingram............ 5.2 (no Lebron

2019 Kuzma............... 2.5
22-25' Kuzma............. 3.8 (no Lebron)

2018 Ball..................... 7.2 (no Lebron)
2019 Ball..................... 5.4
20-22' Ball................... 6.1 (no Lebron)

00-09' Jamison........... 1.8 (no Lebron)
2010 Jamison............. 1.3
11-12' Jamison........... 1.9 (no Lebron)

04-10' Wade............... 6.6 (no Lebron)
11-14' Wade............... 4.7

19-22' D-Lo................. 6.7 (no Lebron)
23-25' D-Lo................. 6.2

09-21' Westbrook....... 8.5 (no Lebron)
2022 Westbrook..........7.1

15-18'' KCP.................. 2.0 (no Lebron)
19-21' KCP................... 1.6
22-25' KCP................... 2.2 (no Lebron)

In addition to reducing teammates' assists, high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron increase teammates' assisted rate (play-finishing, aka "spot-up roles"), as shown below.

................................................................APG.................. ASSISTED RATE

wade BEFORE lebron (04'-10'):........... 6.6............................29.2%
wade WITH.... lebron (11'-14'):'.......... 4.7............................40.3%

irving BEFORE lebron (12'-14'):........... 5.8............................31.9%
irving WITH.... lebron.. (15-17'):.......... 5.3............................32.7%

bosh BEFORE lebron (04'-10'):............. 2.2............................55.8%
bosh WITH.... lebron (11'-14'):'............ 1.6............................71.6%

love BEFORE lebron (09'-14'):.............. 2.5.............................62.7%
love WITH.... lebron (15'-18'):.............. 2.1.............................78.3%

mo BEFORE lebron (05'-08'):................ 5.7.............................39.2%
mo WITH.... lebron (09'-10'):................ 4.6.............................47.6%


FYI...

pippen WITH... jordan 91'-93':............. 6.5
pippen W/OUT jordan 94'-95':............. 5.4
pippen WITH... jordan 96'-98':............. 5.8

Matt,

Tell me again the correlation between assist rate and winning.

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Team assist ranking for every champion since 1980


80' Lakers........ 1
81' Celtics........ 7
82' Lakers........ 1
83' Sixers......... 19
84' Celtics........ 14
85' Lakers........ 1
86' Celtics........ 2
87' Lakers........ 1
88' Lakers........ 3
89' Pistons....... 17
90' Pistons....... 27
91' Bulls............ 4
92' Bulls............ 3
93' Bulls............ 6
94' Rockets....... 8
95' Rockets....... 7
96' Bulls............ 5
96' Bulls............ 2
98' Bulls............ 7
99' Spurs.......... 6
00' Lakers......... 10
01' Lakers......... 9
02' Lakers......... 9
03' Spurs........... 22
04' Pistons........ 15
05' Spurs........... 14
06' Heat............ 17
07' Spurs.......... 11
08' Celtics.......... 8
09' Lakers......... 2
10' Lakers......... 15
11' Mavs........... 2
12' Heat............ 21
13' Heat............ 7
14' Spurs........... 1
15' Warriors...... 1
16' Warriors...... 1
17' Warriors...... 1
18' Warriors...... 1
19' Raptors........ 13
20' Lakers.......... 10
21' Bucks........... 14
22' Warriors...... 5
23' Nuggets....... 2
24' Celtics........... 14
______________________
8.1 average ranking for champions since 1980

7.3 for Jordan's teams

14.0 for Lebron's teams

18.3 for all high-scoring ball-dominators, aka all seasons of 25+ ppg and below 40% assisted rate since 1997 (96 instances)

CONCLUSION:

Championship basketball is associated with higher-assist teams, while ball-dominators like Lebron lower teammates' assists and have low-assist teams - this is all statistical fact, aka champions have higher-assist teams on average (stats above), while high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron lower teammates' assists and have low-assist teams (Appendices B and C).

The issue is that high-scoring ball-dominators have high volume of unassisted buckets that reduce everyone's assist opportunity and leaves them standing around in spot-up roles (increases their assisted rate)... By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction and strategy, so they can't be 1st option for the best basketball, such as dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12).. Since they can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as jumpshooters or bigs (12 for 12)... Ranking behind all the best bigs and jumpshooters puts Lebron out of the top 10.

Lebron's inferior brand of lowering teammates' assists not only fails to produce the best basketball, but it also underachieves rosters the most frequently, such as the most losses ever with preseason favorites, Finals teams and bevies of losses with all-star teammates, homecourt, and 1 or 2 seeds - the GOAT standard is to never lose in these scenarios, which shows how far below the goat standard Lebron truly is.

(Data regarding Lebron reducing teammates' assists while increasing their assisted rate, aka "imposing spot-up roles" is in Appendix C, and the resulting lower assist teams of ball-dominators is shown in Appendix B... The resulting lack of ball-dominators as 1st option for dynasties & dominant champions (0 for 12) is shown in Appendix A).

Imagine gloating about writing posts about assists, when the post said "assist percentage".

How embarrassing for you.

Eek.

I'm glad that we corrected so many misperceptions itt

Your deflections have gotten really bad.. I'll help you guys out by providing you and Matt the shortest summary yet, so the pertinent issues are crystal clear:

Championship basketball is associated with higher-assist teams, while ball-dominators like Lebron lower teammates' assists and have low-assist teams, while imposing spot-up roles.

By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction and strategy, so they can't be 1st option for the best basketball, such as dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12).. Since they can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as jumpshooters or bigs (12 for 12)... By virtue of ranking behind the best jumpshooters and bigs, Lebron isn't in the top 10 all-time.

Thanks so much for keeping the thread open long enough so everyone can learn that championship basketball is associated with higher-assist teams, while ball-dominators like Lebron lower teammates' assists and have low-assist teams, while imposing spot-up roles.

By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction and strategy, so they can't be 1st option for the best basketball, such as dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12).. Since they can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as jumpshooters or bigs (12 for 12)... By virtue of ranking behind the best jumpshooters and bigs, Lebron isn't in the top 10 all-time.

Hi AIML.

Thanks for leaving the thread open long enough to show that there is no correlation between winning games and assist percentage, and that Championship winning team are only just pretty good at assisting (and if you take out the Warriors outlier, slightly better than league average).

You're welcome fidstar

Spoiler alert: fallguy does, indeed, need to gaslight like a b*tch. Lmfao

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8 of 8 "DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION FOR THAT PLAYOFF RUN:

1. 2017 Warriors (16-1).............. DURANT

2. 2001 Lakers (15-1).................. SHAQ

3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)................... DUNCAN

4. 2024 Celtics (16-3)................. TATUM

5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4).............. JOKIC

6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)................... DUNCAN

7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).................. SHAQ

8. 1997 Bulls (15-4)..................... JORDAN

4 0f 4 "DYNASTIES" THAT MOSTLY WON FOR A MATERIAL STRETCH OF 5+ YEARS (I.E. 3 IN 5) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION:

1. CHICAGO BULLS..................... JORDAN

2. LOS ANGELES LAKERS)........... SHAQ

3. SAN ANTONIO SPURS............ DUNCAN

4. GSW WARRIORS...................... CURRY

^^^ 12 of 12 instances of dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball) required bigs or jumpshooters at 1st option.

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Team assist ranking for every champion since 1980


80' Lakers........ 1
81' Celtics........ 7
82' Lakers........ 1
83' Sixers......... 19
84' Celtics........ 14
85' Lakers........ 1
86' Celtics........ 2
87' Lakers........ 1
88' Lakers........ 3
89' Pistons....... 17
90' Pistons....... 27
91' Bulls............ 4
92' Bulls............ 3
93' Bulls............ 6
94' Rockets....... 8
95' Rockets....... 7
96' Bulls............ 5
96' Bulls............ 2
98' Bulls............ 7
99' Spurs.......... 6
00' Lakers......... 10
01' Lakers......... 9
02' Lakers......... 9
03' Spurs........... 22
04' Pistons........ 15
05' Spurs........... 14
06' Heat............ 17
07' Spurs.......... 11
08' Celtics.......... 8
09' Lakers......... 2
10' Lakers......... 15
11' Mavs........... 2
12' Heat............ 21
13' Heat............ 7
14' Spurs........... 1
15' Warriors...... 1
16' Warriors...... 1
17' Warriors...... 1
18' Warriors...... 1
19' Raptors........ 13
20' Lakers.......... 10
21' Bucks........... 14
22' Warriors...... 5
23' Nuggets....... 2
24' Celtics........... 14
______________________
8.1 average ranking for champions since 1980

7.3 for Jordan's teams

14.0 for Lebron's teams

18.3 for all high-scoring ball-dominators, aka all seasons of 25+ ppg and below 40% assisted rate since 1997 (96 instances)

It's about winning championships, not just winning games, and the previous post shows that there's a strong correlation between winning championships and higher team assists... Unfortunately, Lebron's skillset lowers teammates' assists and produces low-assist teams, while imposing spot-up roles (stats here).

By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction and strategy, so they can't be 1st option for the best basketball, such as dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12)... Since they can't produce the best basketball, ball-dominators are inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as jumpshooters or bigs (12 for 12)... By virtue of ranking behind the best jumpshooters and bigs, Lebron isn't a top 10 all-time player.

Since we've solved the mystery of Lebron's needy teams, futile roster construction (i.e. his skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter), and the resulting inability to produce the best basketball, the debate is now solved about whether ball-dominant skillsets like Lebron can be top 10 all-time (they can't)... Accordingly, I'm moving on to other topics that further illustrate how bad Lebron is at basketball compared to MJ, and even a poor man's MJ (kobe).

Matt lost on the issue of team APG being correlated with championships and the best basketball, so he brought up team assist percentage being correlated with winning in general... It's 2 completely different things, but I'm going to help you guys out and explain why team assist percentage is pretty useless.

First of all, we all know that the team with the higher number of points when game ends is considered the winner, so efficiency on those shots is less important than simply having more points than the other team... Similarly, the percentage of shots assisted on means little compared to total assists.. Infact, the percentage of shots assisted on removes pace from the equation, since a slow-paced team will have an inflated assisted percentage on their field goals compared to a faster-paced team... The faster-paced team is often more talented and more capable of playing different speeds, while the slower-paced team cannot keep up that assist frequency at the higher pace or different situations... For all these reasons and others, team assists will be more reflective and correlated with winning, just like total points is more correlated with winning than shooting efficiency.

Hope that helps... Btw, we saw a real life example of this during the Spurs' 2014 title run... The Heat shot the better against the Spurs than any Spurs' opponent, but they lost by the most because they averaged the least ppg against the Spurs of any opponent... Otoh, the opponent that did the best against the Spurs was the Mavs, and they averaged the most ppg against the Spurs of any opponent.. OKC averaged the 2nd most ppg against the Spurs, so they did the 2nd best... Portland averaged the 3rd most ppg, and they did the 3rd-best.. this is how basketball works, folks.. The Heat averaged the least ppg and did the worst (despite shooting better than any other Spurs' opponent).... This is how basketball works - the per game stats (raw production) is always the most relevant and more important than the percentages.

You're blatantly lying again because the 80's Lakers, 80's Celtics, 90's Bulls, Hakeem's Rockets, Dirk's Mavs, Curry's Warriors, and Jokic's Nuggets were all very high-assist teams and these are most of the champions since 1980, while the 00's Lakers were also above league-average in assists as well, or the Spurs for most of their titles.. There have only been a few low-assist champions.

You clearly lack a feel for statistics because anyone should know that an average ranking of 8th since 1980 won't rely on 1 team.

I'm not the one arguing that ball movement and team assists aren't associated with the best basketball (championships)... Your arguments against ball movement are counterintuitive and against common knowledge bball 101... The fact that you've been cornered into making these arguments proves how badly you lost the debate.

It's about winning championships, not just winning games, and the previous posts show that there's a strong correlation between winning championships and higher team assists... Unfortunately, Lebron's skillset lowers teammates' assists and produces low-assist teams, while imposing spot-up roles (stats here).

By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction and strategy, so they can't be 1st option for the best basketball, such as dynasties or dominant champions (0 for 12)... Since they can't produce the best basketball, ball-dominators are inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as jumpshooters or bigs (12 for 12)... By virtue of ranking behind the best jumpshooters and bigs, Lebron isn't a top 10 all-time player.

Since we've solved the mystery of Lebron's needy teams, futile roster construction (i.e. his skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter), and the resulting inability to produce the best basketball, the debate is now solved about whether ball-dominant skillsets like Lebron can be top 10 all-time (they can't)... Accordingly, I'm moving on to other topics that further illustrate how bad Lebron is at basketball compared to MJ, and even a poor man's MJ (kobe).

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8 of 8 "DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION FOR THAT PLAYOFF RUN:

1. 2017 Warriors (16-1).............. DURANT

2. 2001 Lakers (15-1).................. SHAQ

3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)................... DUNCAN

4. 2024 Celtics (16-3)................. TATUM

5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4).............. JOKIC

6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)................... DUNCAN

7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).................. SHAQ

8. 1997 Bulls (15-4)..................... JORDAN

4 0f 4 "DYNASTIES" THAT MOSTLY WON FOR A MATERIAL STRETCH OF 5+ YEARS (I.E. 3 IN 5) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION:

1. CHICAGO BULLS..................... JORDAN

2. LOS ANGELES LAKERS)........... SHAQ

3. SAN ANTONIO SPURS............ DUNCAN

4. GSW WARRIORS...................... CURRY

Thread Cliffs:

Since possession-tracking began in 1997, 12 of 12 instances of "the best basketball" required bigs or jumpshooters at 1st option, and this includes 4 of 4 "dynasties" that mostly won for a material stretch of 5+ years (i.e. 3 in 5), and 8 of 8 "dominant champions" that averaged 1 loss per round or less (4 losses max) for the playoff run.

Contrastingly, high-scorers with low assisted rates, aka "high-scoring primary ballhandlers" or "high-scoring ball-dominators" like Luka, Lebron, Harden, and company have high volume of unassisted buckets that reduce everyone's assists while increasing their assisted rate and spot-up role... By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction and strategy, so they can't be 1st option for the best basketball, such as the dynasties or dominant champions shown above (0 for 12).. Since they can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as jumpshooters or bigs (12 for 12)... By virtue of ranking behind the best jumpshooters and bigs, Lebron isn't a top 10 all-time player.

Lebron's inferior brand of lowering teammates' assists not only fails to produce the best basketball, but it also underachieves rosters the most frequently, such as the most losses ever with preseason favorites, Finals teams and bevies of losses with all-star teammates, homecourt, and 1 or 2 seeds - the GOAT standard is to never lose in these scenarios, which shows how far below the goat standard Lebron truly is.