LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

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16 Playoff Teams in 1989

* The 2006 Cavs had 3 players in the top 60 for PPG

* The 2010 Cavs had 3 players in the top 60

* The 2007-2009 Cavs had 2 players in the top 75 for PPG

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STATS WHILE LOSING 2-1 LEAD WITH NO HELP

2008 ECSF







1989 ECF

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PLAYOFF STATS BEFORE GETTING "HELP" (06-11' VS 85-90')

BEST AND WORST PLAYOFF SERIES FOR MJ AND LEBRON BEFORE THEY GOT "HELP" (06-11' VS 85-90')

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJMDljWS...

Jordan was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1, while Lebron got 3 years to develop a favored high seed before entering his first playoffs - this development included Lebron and Zydrunas becoming all-stars in 2005, while also acquiring a great coach and 22/5/5 first-team defender that was playing better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball.

People claim that Lebron "carries any team through the East", but he only made the Finals after putting the top 3 players in the East on 1 team, or playing in such a weak conference that a 22 on 35% player could win it (and 6 TO's)... History shows that Kyrie played in 12 of 14 games in the 15' East Playoffs, while Love was the only all-star sidekick in the 18' East, so the only time that Lebron took a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it (Iverson, Dwight and Kidd twice).

Ultimately, when Lebron first entered the league, no one expected him to give up on a 62-win league favorite after Year 7 and team up with opponents thereafter - that's the definition of failing expectations.

TLDR;[/COLOR] JORDAN'S HIGHS WERE MUCH HIGHER AND LEBRON'S LOWS WERE MUCH LOWER
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PLAYOFF STATS BEFORE GETTING "HELP" (06-11' VS 85-90')

BEST AND WORST PLAYOFF SERIES FOR MJ AND LEBRON BEFORE THEY GOT "HELP" (06-11' VS 85-90')

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJMDljWS...

Jordan was thrown into the playoffs in Year 1 with a rookie team, while Lebron got 3 years to develop a veteran high seed before entering his first playoffs - Lebron and Zydrunas became all-stars in 2005, while also acquiring a great coach and 22/5/5 all-defender that was playing better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball.

People claim that Lebron "carries any team through the East", but he only made the Finals after putting the top 3 players in the East on 1 team, or playing in such a weak conference that a 22 on 35% player could win it (and 6 TO's)... History shows that Kyrie played in 12 of 14 games in the 15' East Playoffs, while Love was the only all-star sidekick in the 18' East, so the only time that Lebron took a 1-star team to the Finals was when everyone was doing it (Iverson, Dwight and Kidd twice).

Ultimately, when Lebron first entered the league, no one expected him to give up on a 62-win league favorite after Year 7 and team up with opponents thereafter - that's the definition of failing expectations.

TLDR;[/COLOR] JORDAN'S HIGHS WERE MUCH HIGHER AND LEBRON'S LOWS WERE MUCH LOWER
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All Losses By 1st Options as Preseason Favorite Since Odds Began in 1985


LEBRON.............. 2011, 2014, 2015, 2021
SHAQ.................. 1999, 2003, 2004
KOBE'.................. 2003, 2004
BIRD'................... 1985, 1987
MAGIC................ 1986, 1989
EWING'............... 1994, 1995
DIRK.................... 2007, 2008
DUNCAN'............ 2006
BARKLEY............. 1995
ISIAH................... 1991
PIPPEN'................ 2000
KG........................ 2009
CURRY................. 2019
KAWHI................. 2020
KD........................ 2022
TATUM................. 2023

Lebron lost the most ever as the preseason favorite or in the Finals.

He also has more losses with all-star teammates, homecourt, top seeds, sweep losses, and record losses than Kobe, Curry or MJ, so he's a "loser" compared to them and they're "winners" compared to him.

Losses with Homecourt Advantage

LEBRON.............. 2009, 2010, 2011
KOBE'.................. 2004, 2011
CURRY................. 2016, 2023


Losses with Top Seeds (1 or 2 seed)

LEBRON.............. 2009, 2010, 2011, 2014, 2017
KOBE'.................. 2004, 2008, 2011
CURRY................. 2016, 2019


Losses with All-Star teammates

LEBRON.............. 2005, 2009, 2011, 2014, 2017, 2018, 2021
KOBE'.................. 2003, 2004, 2011
CURRY................. 2016, 2019


Losses in the Finals

LEBRON.............. 2007, 2011, 2014, 2015, 2017, 2018
KOBE'.................. 2004, 2008
CURRY................. 2016, 2019


4-0 sweeps or record losses

LEBRON.............. 2007, 2014, 2017, 2018, 2023
KOBE................... 2011

MJ has no losses with favored talent, while Lebron underachieves favored talent the most among any player in the last 25 years, and we know why - his high-scoring dribbling or point guard skillset has a high volume of unassisted buckets that leaves teammates standing around in spot-up roles, thereby producing zero teammate development, weak chemistry and perennial losers with every cast

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Lebron had equal or greater help than Curry, yet he produced perennial losers while Curry produced a dynasty (so he didn't need to team-hop):

11-13' WADE............ 25.2 PER... 0.211 WS/48... 6.1 BPM... 14.0 VORP.... 23.1 and 4.8 apg
17-19' DURANT........ 25.8 PER... 0.229 WS/48... 7.1 BPM... 16.4 VORP.... 25.8 and 5.1 apg

11-13' BOSH............. 19.5 PER... 0.173 WS/48... 1.2 BPM... 5.8 VORP..... 18/8/2
17-19' KLAY............... 16.7 PER... 0.106 WS/48... 0.1 BPM... 4.1 VORP..... 21/4/2


15-16' KYRIE............. 20.9 PER... 0.168 WS/48... 3.4 BPM... 6.0 VORP..... 21/3/5
15-16' KLAY............... 19.6 PER... 0.158 WS/48... 3.0 BPM... 6.5 VORP..... 22/4/2

15-16' LOVE............... 18.9 PER... 0.168 WS/48... 3.0 BPM... 6.0 VORP.... 16/10/2
15-16' DRAY............... 17.9 PER... 0.177 WS/48... 4.6 BPM... 8.7 VORP..... 12/9/7

The all-star duo of Zydrunas and Lebron received 4 players that were better than 1990 Pippen, but Lebron's skillset of reducing teammates' assists while increasing their assisted rate and spot-up role predictably failed to develop or win anything with them:

05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

09' MO WILLIAMS........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

09' JAMISON................. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

06' ZYDRUNAS'.............. 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN..................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

The "bron-ball" skillset of imposing spot-up roles simply destroyed Hughes, Love, Bosh, Jamison, Kuzma, Ingram, Westbrook, Drummond, D-Lo, and many, many more.

Reminder

High-scorers with low assisted rates, aka "ball-dominators" like Luka, Lebron, Harden, and company have high volume of unassisted buckets that reduce everyone's assists while increasing their assisted rate and spot-up role.. So even though there's a strong correlation between winning championships and higher team assists, Lebron's skillset lowers teammates' assists and produces low-assist teams, while imposing spot-up roles.

By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction and strategy, so they can't be 1st option for the best basketball, such as the dynasties or dominant champions shown previously (0 for 12).. Since they can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as jumpshooters or bigs (12 for 12)... By virtue of ranking behind the best jumpshooters and bigs, Lebron isn't a top 10 all-time player.

Lebron's inferior brand of lowering teammates' assists not only fails to produce the best basketball, but it also underachieves rosters the most frequently, such as the most losses ever with preseason favorites, Finals teams and bevies of losses with all-star teammates, homecourt, and 1 or 2 seeds - the GOAT standard is to never lose in these scenarios, which shows how far below the goat standard Lebron truly is.

Jordan's first playoff team was a rookie low seed, while Lebron's first playoff team was a 3rd year high seeds that included the East all-star center and a 22/5/5 acquisition that was playing better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball.. And Lebron didn't get all-defensive team until 2009, so the elite defensive ranking of his early Cavs teams was due to a stacked roster of all-defensive players like Eric Snow, Larry Hughes, Wallace and Varejao, plus rebounders like Zydrunas, Gooden, Shaq, and Jamison - that's like 6 Horace Grants (or better), plus more scoring options on offense as well.. TLDR: MJ would've 3-peated with Lebron's early Cavs teams, since they had better defensive ranking/personnel and more scoring options.

High-scoring ball-dominators would have zero titles if Lebron hadn't teamed up with his opponents in an unprecedented move of collusion, and yet this weak brand still mostly lost at each stop, such as 1 for 4 with Love, AD and Wade (except the Allen miracle).. He mostly lost with each team and has losing records with all-star teammates, top seeds, preseason favorites and Finals teams.

It's sad that many people believe this horrific chemistry, perennial-losing and inability to produce a great team is the best caliber of basketball that has existed - what a stunning display of ignorance, naivety, delusion and victim of fraud.

05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

05' HUGHES.................. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................... 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

Otoh, Jordan was never 2nd option or even equal-scoring partner, so he didn't get to pad efficiency and other categories, while the stats confirm that Jordan's 6 rings are equal or bigger carry-jobs then 94' Hakeem or 11' Dirk:

PLAYOFFS

94' Hakeem....... 27.7 PER.... 8.5 BPM... 2.6 VORP... 0.208 WS/48... 28.9 ppg
94' Horry'........... 16.7 PER.... 5.0 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.152 WS/48... 11.7 ppg
GAP........................ 11.0............3.5............. 1.2............. 0.056............. 17.2

93' Jordan'.......... 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen.......... 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP........................ 13.2........... 9.6............. 2.1............. 0.187............. 15.0

11' Dirk'............... 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry.............. 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.......................... 4.9............1.1............. 0.5.............. 0.031............ 10.2

92' Jordan''.......... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen........... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP.......................... 7.1............ 3.3............. 0.8............. 0.048............ 15.0

91' Jordan'........... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen........... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP........................ 10.0............. 8.1............. 1.4............. 0.136.............. 9.5

96' Jordan'........... 26.7 PER... 10.7 BPM... 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen........... 19.4 PER..... 7.8 BPM... 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP.......................... 7.3............. 2.9............. 0.6.............. 0.122............ 13.8

97' Jordan'............ 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen............ 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP.......................... 9.1............. 4.8............. 1.0.............. 0.090............ 11.9

98' Jordan'............ 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen............ 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP.......................... 8.7............. 3.4............. 0.8............... 0.095........... 16.4

There's never been a bigger statistical gap between 1st and 2nd option than MJ and Pippen.

Pippen was a Larry Nance-level producer that needed titles and winning spotlight to make All-NBA, so he's inferior to elite producers that made All-NBA without playoff success, such as Love, Bosh, KAT, AD, Jokic, Wade, Shaq, etc... This is why winning sidekicks like Klay, Pippen, Pau, Dumars, Parker, Ginobili, or even Worthy are overrated by virtue of needing titles and winning spotlight to make All-NBA.

It should also be noted that Lebron needed equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention for the 11' Playoffs, 16' Playoffs, 20' Playoffs, and every Finals win, so he never defeated max defensive attention - he never carried the scoring load on the championship level, while MJ led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every series (carried scoring load) and therefore defeated max defensive attention in every series including the championship level (6 of 6 Finals).

Furthermore, 25 ppg was considered very bad for Jordan and he was never anywhere near that bad in any series, yet the 00's East was so weak that Lebron, Kidd, Dwight, and Iverson won it with 25 ppg on bad efficiency (or less)... The 07' Spurs also confirmed that a 22 on 35% player won the East (and 6 TO's).

Finally, it's easy to forget that Jordan's first playoff team was a 1st-Year rookie low seed, while Lebron's first playoff team was a 3rd year high seed of veterans that included the East all-star center and an acquisition that was playing better than 1990 Pippen (shown in previous post), along with a great coach and top defenses.

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Suboptimal "bron-ball" vs Brooklyn Nets last night:

high-scorers with low-assisted rates, aka "ball-dominators" have zero titles in NBA history except when Lebron "decided" to team-up with the #2 and #3 PER's in the league (and still mostly lost in embarrassing fashion).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w-gsJm5...

Enjoy your fraud.

AD, Rui, and Reaves are sacrificing their primes and stats for this losing "bron-ball" skillset, just like Love and Bosh did.

History shows that high-scoring ball-dominators cannot win titles and have zero titles without "decisions" to stack the deck... And of course, they cannot be the leading scorer for the BEST basketball regardless of what they do (dynasties or dominant champions), aka 0 for 12.

Lebron is 3-4 with preseason favorites, 4-7 with all-star teammates, 4-6 with Finals teams, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, while the goat standard is to never lose in these scenariors.

Maybe this assist thing means something. Perhaps there’s a method to fallguy’s madness!?

Knicks just won tonight vs Hawks with 31 team assists.

When the Knicks have at least 30 assists they are now 16-1 this season.

I’d greatly appreciate any thoughts on this from anyone who has a sharp basketball mind.

Or we could just stop feeding this troll and see how long he keeps posting without anyone reading or responding.

Championship teams averaged 8th in team assists since 1980, so there's a correlation between the best basketball and team assists.. Unfortunately, high scorers with low assisted rates or "ball-dominators" have a low ceiling in team assists (low average ranking)..

Specifically, their large volume of unassisted buckets lowers teammates' assists while increasing their assisted rate and spot-up role.. By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction and strategy, so they can't be the leading scorer for dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball), aka 0 for 12.

Since ball-dominators can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as jumpshooters or bigs (12 for 12)... By virtue of ranking behind the best jumpshooters and bigs, Lebron isn't a top 10 all-time player.

Lebron's inferior brand of lowering teammates' assists not only fails to produce the best basketball, but it also underachieves the most by virtue of going 3-4 with preseason favorites, 4-6 with Finals teams, 4-7 with all-star teammates, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, and 3 losses with homecourt... The GOAT standard is to never lose in these scenarios, which shows how far below the goat standard Lebron and all ball-dominators truly are.. Infact, they can't win titles at all without "deciding" to put the top 3 PER's in the league on 1 team and teaming up with opposing franchise players.. (edit: MJ lost twice with an all-star in the baseball year and migraine year, so he's 6-2 with an all-star and undefeated in all the other scenarios).

Some people appear incapable of that task.

You can call it trolling, but everything I said is statistical fact - there's a strong correlation between championship teams and high team assists, but ball-dominators lower teammates' assists and have low assist teams, which makes it harder for them to win..

Infact, high scorers with low-assisted rates, aka "ball-dominators" have never won except Wade in 06' and when Lebron put the top 3 PER's in the league on 1 team.. The hindering factor is that ball-dominators have large volume of unassisted buckets that reduce teammates' assists, while increasing their assisted rate or spot-up role.. By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, ball-dominators prevent elite roster construction and strategy, which makes it nearly impossible to win, while also preventing the BEST basketball - i.e. ball-dominators can't be the leading scorer for dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball), aka 0 for 12.

Since ball-dominators make it harder to win and can't produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can, such as jumpshooters or bigs (12 for 12)... By virtue of ranking behind the best jumpshooters and bigs, Lebron isn't a top 10 all-time player.

Lebron's inferior brand of lowering teammates' assists not only fails to produce the best basketball, but it also underachieves the most, such as 3-4 with preseason favorites, 4-6 with Finals teams, 4-7 with all-star teammates, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, and 3 losses with homecourt... The GOAT standard is to never lose in these scenarios, which shows how far below the goat standard Lebron and all ball-dominators truly are.

I've known for a while now that no one would ever concede.... 956 pages proves that... Accordingly, I always knew that when I finally won the argument, everyone would just quit and turn into ghosts.

McLovin' just wanted to see if Fidstar and Matt had any more fight left, but they saw the writing on the wall once I linked team assists to champions and listed the assist ranking of every champion since 1980 - this showed a clear correlation between championship teams and team assists, which means that Lebron's style of lowering everyone's assists was a hindering factor that negatively affected his title chances every year.

This horrible chemistry is why ball-dominators don't win without "decisions" to stack the deck, and the horrible chemistry still mostly loses... And of course they can't produce the best basketball like dynasties or dominant champions no matter what they do (0 for 12)... Ultimately, I'm happy the thread arrived at definite conclusions that are statistically-backed and fully-vetted - we have a legitimate framework that puts Lebron and all high-scoring ball-dominators outside the top 10 all-time.

Furthermore, every series loss of Lebron's playoff career shows deficits in team assists, except the 2011 Finals... So the one time in his career that he lost while out-assisting the opponent is commonly known as the greatest choke of all-time.

So Lebron's losing is correlated with assist deficits basically 100% if we exclude the GC (goat choke)... So that's another correlation in addition to the average team assist ranking for championship teams and the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions).. We've simply identified a massive hole or weakness in Lebron's game (ball movement, chemistry/teammate performance) compared to MJ's.

Joins Malone as only players with a triple double post 40.

He has also passed Pippen in Steals list, only pure guards ahead of him now there.

Well it's settled.

fallguy wins the argument that Michael Jordan is the GOAT.

Lock her up!

Iron sharpens iron folks. If not for 10+ years of ceaseless debate, the assisted FG breakthrough would never have happened!

We should all take a bow.

For the record we’re all on which team this year based upon this framework? Not OKC right?

Lebron's horrific on-offs confirm that the Lakers are a horrific team when he's on the floor, which means they're sacrificing winning, chemistry and teammate development so Lebron can get stats:

Career steals

Lebron......... 2309..... 1530 games
Pippen......... 2307..... 1178 games
GOAT............ 2514..... 1072 games

It took Lebron 352 more games and 5 extra seasons to pass Pippen, and he still hasn't passed Jordan - he'll need 3 more seasons after this one to pass Jordan, and it took him 7 more seasons to pass Jordan's scoring.

So Lebron is a great physical talent... However, the best players let young teammates have the stat-friendly ball-handler role to develop as players, while they drop 40 and dominate at goat levels in the less stat-friendly spot-up role (bailout role) - i.e. only the best players can drop 40 and dominate from the spot-up role - this maximizes teammates by letting them have the stat-friendly ball-handler role more often than Lebron's teammates, who are stuck in spot-up roles and can't develop.
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