LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

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LEBRON'S TEAMMATES FROM 04-10' THAT HAD OFFICIAL ACCOLADES

* 2005 East All-Star Center - Zydrunas

* 2005 1st Team Defense and Steals Champ - Hughes

* 2005 Eric Snow Acquisition (03' All-Defense)

* 2008 Fossil Ben Wallace (still better than fossil Rodman)

* 2009 East All-Star Guard - Mo Williams

* 2010 2nd Team All-Defense - Varejao

* 2010 Two-time All-Star & Coveted Acquisition - Jamison

* 2010 Fossil Shaq (still better than fossil Rodman)

JORDAN'S TEAMMATES FROM 04-10' THAT HAD OFFICIAL ACCOLADES

* 1990 East All-Star Forward - Pippen

* 1979 East All-Star Center - Cartwright

^^^ Lebron did that with multiple all-star teammates and champion super-teams, while Jordan only did that with bigger mismatches than the 04' Cavs vs 04' Pistons.

(Zydrunas had already been to the playoffs with Kemp in 98', while also being an all-star in 03' & 05', and the 04' Cavs also had Boozer)

STATS WHILE LOSING 2-1 LEAD WITH NO HELP

2008 ECSF







1989 ECF

Pippen missed the closeout game and averaged 9.7 on 40% for 89' ECF overall as a 2nd year, trash player.. Fortunately, MJ is the goat, so people still gave the Bulls a shot against a dynasty and expected MJ to develop sufficient chemistry to win with this same lottery cast after a few tries.

24ppg on 44% shooting is still pretty ****.

Also, at least LeBron won a game. MJ got smashed 3-0.

Oh, lol. That is only Game 4 to 6 and doesn't count Game 7 when LeBron went for 45 points.

Just, wow!

So sad and pathetic.

I'm at 100%, but I reckon use is widespread across the NBA and has been for a long time.

Like many things, I expect LeBron to pursue it in a systemic/obsessive way, wrapped into his physical regimen to an extent unmatched by most of his peers throughout his career.

I skimmed these walls of text - but I think a serious argument is being made for Larry Nance Jr being on a similar level to Scotty Pippen?!!?

Pippen had the 2 best years of his career when Jordan didn't play. Finished 3rd and 7th in MVP voting. That's like Kobe Bryant level stuff.

The only other times he played without Jordan he was well past his prime.

Jackson coached teams where Pippen was the star, and teams where Kobe was the star. The 2 lowest win seasons of Jackson's career were Kobe years.

Maybe we should be arguing Pippen vs Kobe.

That was a typo - the post should read "2010 ECSF", not the 2008 ECSF, hence the confusion... Again, it was the 2010 ECSF that Lebron averaged 21 on 34% for the last 3 games to lose a 2-1 lead as a -500 favorite.

But the 2008 ECSF was actually worse because that's when Lebron became the only player to shoot 35% and 6 TO's for a series - it's the worst anyone ever played and he did this twice (07' Finals, 08' ECSF) - there's never been a worse combination of bricklaying and turnovers, aka woat offense.

The First 4 Games of Various 7 Game Series

08' ECSF....... 19 on 26%
13' Finals..... 21 on 46%
16' Finals..... 24 and 6 TO's

Lebron choked for the first 4 games of the 08' ECSF, 13' Finals and 16' Finals (above), which caused the need for Game 7 each time, so it's dumb to praise the closeout game and ignore the multiple chokes that caused the closeout game, or teammate bailouts.. Lebron had official teammate bailouts in the 13' Finals, 16' Finals and 07' ECF (Boobie dominating the closeout game and 4th quarter while Lebron wet the bed).

80's Jordan only lost with underdogs, zero all-stars and he never wet the bed, while 06-10' Lebron lost with favorites, all-stars, and he wet the bed a lot... This includes the worst basketball ever played by being the only person to shoot 35% with 6 TO's in a series (08' ECSF and 07' Finals), and then 21 on 34% to lose 2-1 lead as -500 favorite in 2010...

So there's no comparison - you clearly fell for a fraud whose skillset produces bad chemistry and losing records with preseason favorites (3-4), all-star teammates (4-7), Finals teams (4-6), and 1 or 2 seeds (4-5).. Lebron fans claim that this is the best basketball we've ever seen lol
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Indeed, Lebron was one of the 10 biggest favorites to ever lose a playoff series when he lost to Dwight's injured 1-star Magic as a -700 favorite.. He turned into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time for that series, which included his infamous 7 turnovers in the 4th & OT of Game 4 that swung the series..

Due to a ball-dominance that increases as he scores more, Lebron has trouble beating top teams at carry-job levels and therefore has never carried weak help over top teams (never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, such as 18 on 38% from Mo - he never beat a top team with that, while MJ did as a standard).

1992 Pippen...... 21.0 and 7.0 APG.... 55.5 TS... 114 ORTG
1994 Pippen...... 22.0 and 5.6 APG.... 54.4 TS... 109 ORTG

Despite Pippen's promotion to 1st option and the "Jordan role" in 1994, his raw production declined from their highs alongside Jordan (shown in previous post), while his advanced metrics barely increased because the 1st option promotion reduced his efficiency... Accordingly, it's clear that Pippen played to capacity and near career highs alongside Jordan, while Lebron's best teammates play far below capacity/career highs, since he turns them into spot-up shooter.

And Kukoc won 4 games at the buzzer in 1994 as Jordan's replacement in the "closer" role, while also winning many more in clutch-time and 4th quarters.. The 94' Bulls simply took advantage of sleeping opponents and a honeymoon period, but no one thought they were a "real" 50-win team that could win 50 every year - everyone knew the bubble would burst and it did... Once opponents woke up in the playoffs, the Bulls were historically-embarrassed and barely .500 in 95' before MJ restored 3-peat in his first full seasons back.

Ultimately, the media has always rewarded the surprise factor in MVP voting, so Pippen was inflated to a Blake Griffin or Paul George peak in the MVP voting area - whooptiwhoop.

Pippen averaged 14 in Houston just a few months after averaging 20 and winning #6 with Chicago.... The Rockets changed their offense in every way possible to accommodate the 33-year old Pippen, but he was simply a system player and worse than Jeff Green outside the triangle that he grew up in.

Pippen even had a 17 point lead in the 4th quarter to possibly make the Finals, yet he still couldn't make it without MJ... Meanwhile, Lebron's sidekicks make the Finals without him like Kyrie, Wade or Love, and also outplay league MVP's like Curry, Dirk or Jokic..

Kobe was building a team from scratch, as required of "franchise players"... Otoh, Pippen isn't a franchise player, so he was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever and proceeded to crash the car in less than 18 months - the 3-peat Bulls were destroyed to bordeline .500 in 95 after a brief "bubble" of low expectation and honeymoon period.

Every notable 90's sidekick carried their team to the Finals or conference finals with dominant stats and "that guy" status, such as Terry Porter in the 92' WCF, or Stockton in the 97' WCF, or KJ with massive upset victory over Magic in 1990 to make the WCF, and then he dominated Hakeem in 2 different 7-game wars (94' and 95' Playoffs)... Of course Payton, Kemp and Schrempf all took turns carrying the load and all three were All-NBA in 1995.

In contrast to this elite production and "go-to" capability of 90's sidekicks, Pippen was mostly a transition dunker and largely unavailable in tight halfcourt sets in the playoffs... It's easy to forget that many 1st options in the 90's enjoyed all-time floor generals at sidekick that averaged 10 assists like Stockton, Payton, Hardaway, or KJ, but Jordan was stuck with Pippen's 5 assists... Accordingly, among 90's sidekicks, Pippen had the worst passing, efficiency/spacing, clutch and peak scoring ability (not on scouting reports)..

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Thru 5 games of the 1994 ECSF:

If Pippen is your 1st pick, then you have to go out and find a 1st option (and maybe a 2nd and 3rd).

The historical record shows that any team with Pippen as the best scorer will fall out of contention quickly due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty as we saw in 95'.

Specifically, Pippen was never a "franchise player" that was asked to build a team from scratch, and instead he was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever in 94'.. People barely noticed the Bulls were winning because everyone knew the bubble would burst, and it did - once opponents woke up in the playoffs, the Bulls were embarrassed and barely .500 in 95' before MJ restored 3-peat from 96-98'.

During the 2024 season, everyone enjoyed watching Austin Reaves go into Boston without Lebron/AD and beat a sleeping Celtics' team that took them lightly - this type of sleeping opponent is what Pippen faced all year in 94', until the playoffs of course when opponents turned up the pressure and exposed him.. At one point during the 1994 2nd Round, Pippen was averaging 3.0 on 20% in the 4th quarter (thru 5 games), as shown in the graphic above.

The only reason Pippen was ever a 1st option was due to unusual circumstance of being handed a 3-peat dynasty and then reducing it to barely .500 within 18 months - otherwise he would never have been a 1st option... Meanwhile, he was only 2nd option alongside the goat scorer, so he's truly a tertiary producer of role player stat categories like Draymond, but without the alpha.. MJ was the enforcer that got in fights and famously saved Pippen from X-Man in game 7 of the 92' ECSF..

Ultimately, Pippen was a secondary producer that barely hung with guys like X-Man, Schrempf, and Nance, so he was never expected to compete with Barkley, Dominique, Hakeem, or other elite producers that dwarfed his numbers.. Dominque doubled up Pippen in the 93' 1st Round with 30 on 44% to Pippen's 15 on 33%.

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No amount of defense would stop AD from getting downgraded historically and traded if he provided this level of support:

CAREER FINALS

Jordan'........ 34 ppg... 6.0 apg... 2.8 TO.. 48%.. goat clutch
Pippen........ 19 ppg... 5.9 apg... 3.3 TO.. 42%.. zero clutch (worst-ever)


CAREER PLAYOFFS WITH BULLS

Jordan'........ 33 ppg... 5.7 apg... 3.1 TO.. 49%
Pippen........ 18 ppg... 5.3 apg... 2.9 TO.. 45%

^^^ MJ won 6 chips with Pandemic P

I mean I wouldn't have thought so, but if you look into it it's actually reasonable argument. Pippen has 3 of the Top 5 VORP seasons between the two.

Definitely a better defensive player. Definitely never been part of terrible teams, or being the main reason a team lost as -700 favourite.

Unfortunately MJ doesn't help players around him as much as Shaq with stat padding.

I don’t understand that argument .
Almost every player mj played with ( as in a full season and more then 5m/10m per game) had all their best statistic with mj ?

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Dominique says Pippen was a role player:

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/838gMTNvEHQ

1993 1st Round

Dominique...... 30 on 44%
Pippen............. 15 on 33%

Pippen was mostly an athlete/dunker and Dominique said that Pippen was a role player (previous post), so comparing Kobe and Pippen is like comparing Curry to a beta version of Draymond (mentally-weak version).. Pippen's 5-year meltdown (and counting) over a truthful documentary that mostly praised him shows how much of a mentally weak dude that MJ had to carry.

History shows that Pippen was a low producer and 2nd thru 6th option, while Kobe was an elite producer and one of the best 1st options ever - he's 2 for 2 in FMVP as 1st option, while Pippen isn't a big enough producer to be 1st option on a championship team, and is otherwise 0/6 in FMVP.

I mean saying Pippen took it personally and saying it's mentally weak is interesting.

What are your thoughts on that MJ took everything said about him personally?

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Notice how Pippen can't look X-Man in the eye:

^^^ a slanky grin from Pippen at the end, so happy when big brother steps in

MJ didn't run to the media to disrespect and tear down teammates and coaches.. Pippen said Phil was racist for choosing Kukoc for the game-winner and wrote a book trashing everyone - show me where Jordan did anything like that - MJ was strong and Pippen was weak.. The difference between Jordan (dog) and Pippen (beta) is that Jordan didn't take disrespect of any kind by responding in the moment, while Pippen gets punked repeatedly by X-Man, Rodman, MJ or whoever and then lashes out like a girl 30 years later.

MJ specifically stated that Pippen needed guys to stick up for him here, and MJ initially failed to do that in Game 7 of the 90' ECF ("migraine") but he learned to do that in Game 7 of the 92' ECSF against X-Man (above).

But aside from Pippen's weak tendencies, Pippen played horrifically against physical teams like the 88-90' Pistons (12 on 42%), or 92' and 96 Knicks (15 on 33%).

Pippen also has several of the biggest chokes ever, such as the migraine in 89' when he missed the closeout game, and then a repeat in 1990 with a more famous migraine.. Then he had the "sit-out" game in 94' and infamous foul on Hubert Davis .. Then he lost a 17 point lead in the 4th quarter in 2000 to miss the Finals... These are historic all-time chokes that everyone remembers..

Ultimately, Pippen hit zero memorable or "big shots" in his career, while his 4th quarter and clutch production and efficiency is the worst of all-time among anyone notable - he was Andre Roberson (a defensive, scoreless player) for large stretches of games and always in the 2nd half or 4th... MJ had to average 10-30 more than Pippen in every series, and 10-20 more in every Finals.. There's never been a player more carried.. And it isn't like Pippen was paying back MJ by having the occasional dominant series or FMVP - Pippen's low peak capability of 20 transition points forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load)... MJ carried the scoring load so much that no one else in history did by comparison - MJ is the only guy that carried the scoring load.

Exactly.

Ideally, the young, developing players get to employ the ball-handling roles that maximize growth and stat accumulation (Draymond, Pippen, Ginobili, Parker, Murray, Kobe, etc).. However, the only skillsets that allow these young guys to have the ball in their hands are good assist targets that score assisted buckets/off-ball, such as jumpshooters (Curry, MJ), or bigs (Duncan, Jokic, Shaq)...

In contrast to the assisted buckets of bigs and jumpshooters that put the ball in young players' hands, the large volume of unassisted buckets from high-scoring ball-dominators like Luka, Lillard or Lebron turn everyone into spot-up shooter, thereby preventing elite roster construction or being the leading scorer for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions), aka 0 for 12.

I mean Michael Jordan literally had a documentary where he talked **** about his teammates...

Anyway. Got it. When MJ gets upset about what people say about him, it's strength. When Pippen does it, it's weak.

No need to discuss further.

I mean MJ got ready made players in his 2nd 3 peat. Longley, Harper, Rodman, Kokoc, Kerr. List goes on.

His first 3-peat had 2 other starters that he wasn't part of their development. Cartwright and Paxson. Jerry smashed one draft and got Jordan some studs.

Hardly the developer.

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"a commodity is an economic good, usually a resource, that specifically has full or substantial fungibility (replaceable)"

^^^ Role players are commodities that everyone gets, so the issue is that Jordan never received ready-made stars or players with accolades of any kind because he developed his best teammates.

Contrastingly, Lebron got ready-made All-Stars, All-NBA players, All-Defensive players, and franchise players that include Zydrunas, Snow, Hughes, Jamison, Wade, Bosh, Love, Kyrie, AD, Rondo, and D-Lo, while also receiving 17/6 Mo Williams that he reduced to 17/4 - and since you want to include 35-year old Rodman, I'll raise you 2019 Drummond, 2010 Shaq, and 33-year Ben Wallace (08' & 09').. Lebron even got the 20k scorer and 2x all-star that outplayed him in the 07' 1st Round (Jamison).

Accordingly, 2 things are clear.. Firstly, Lebron's help has always been stacked compared to Jordan's from the moment he entered the league with the East all-star center on his team.. Secondly, since we know that Lebron's skillset turns everyone into spot-up shooter and cannot develop anyone, he was extremely fortunate to receive so many ready-made stars and decorated players.

Rookie Pippen and Grant were bums that Jordan developed to role player status, and then his goat stats and domination did the rest.. He was still required to carry the biggest burden ever based on every metric (ppg, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, percentage of team points, margin above teammates, low peak ability of cast, i.e. only MJ was capable of going off/dominating, etc).

History shows that only Curry or MJ had to develop their key teammates.. Look it up - everyone in history was gifted ready-made stars or needed to develop themselves.. Furthermore, only MJ entered the league as a 30 ppg player that could develop young guys even though he was a young guy himself.

Nope, the Last Dance didn't "talk sh*t" about his teammates.

The camera footage showed MJ winning 6 chips, but apparently the camera showing Jordan's goatness is called "sh*tting on everyone" by Lebron fans and Klutch media.

The Last Dance wasn't a movie - it was actual camera footage, so it naturally showed good AND bad things about everyone, including Jordan, Kerr, Phil or whoever was caught on camera.. And at no point were teammates "talked **** about".. Notice how the alphas or "dogs" of the team like Paxson, Kerr and Cartwright never complained about the doc, while the soft-ass Pippen and "don't knock my goggles off" Grant are the complainers and couldn't handle the raw camera footage... It was camera footage that revealed what the stats already show, which is that they were carried more than any cast ever.

Summary. We know know that peak Pippen value is approximately peak Kobe value. Kobe wins on longevity.

Therefore Jordan/Pippen 3 peat dominance being similar to Shaq/Kobe dominance makes perfect sense. Same head coach too.