LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

Pippen was a low-producing dunker and Dominique said Pippen was a role player, so comparing Kobe to Pippen is like comparing Curry to Draymond (a mentally-weak version).

Pippen was a low producer and 2nd thru 6th option, while Kobe was an elite producer and one of the best 1st options ever - he's 2 for 2 in FMVP as 1st option, while Pippen isn't a big enough producer to be 1st option on a championship team, and is otherwise 0/6 in FMVP.

I mean Shaq was more dominate than MJ in his second 3 peat, so I guess that makes Pippen > Kobe?

Wow, I didn't realize that Shake Milton used to be a starter but is now a bench player for the Lakers' stacked and manufactured cast.

A ton of starters get buried on the Lakers' bench, such as D-Lo, Dinwiddie, Milton, Westbrook, Taureen Prince, and so many more... The Lakers enjoy 3 times the FT disparity of other teams and 5 times the transactional activity, while Lebron is allowed to hand-pick an opposing franchise player to heist from their team.

The "decision" simply started the NBA down a road of less competitiveness that includes colluding, load management and an easy-scoring format that no longer produces the best players in the world.. Accordingly, Lebron and Silver have completely destroyed the NBA and the proof is the serious consideration given to shortening the games to 40 minutes - the current state of affairs is such a debacle that this type of ridiculousness is being considered.

Shaq had an equal-scoring partner to attract equal defensive attention for 01' and 02', so he didn't have to defeat max defensive attention for his 3-peat like MJ did.. MJ had to score 10-20 more than Pippen for all 6 Finals, while Shaq had a "closer" to score just as much, and then carry him in the 4th and clutch-time..

This is night and day compared to Jordan... Maybe you aren't aware, but Kobe destroys Shaq statistically when it mattered, and otherwise matched him for 2 of the 3 runs overall.. Again, this doesn't compare to Jordan...

We can post Pippen's numbers for the 2nd three-peat and compare to Kobe's 3-peat numbers - infact, that's a great idea that I will do... You'll see that Jordan carried the biggest load ever during the 2nd three-peat - it's pretty absurd because Pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96'-98' Playoffs and had the worst shooting splits ever for 2 of those runs - so Jordan won with the biggest bricklayer ever and thoroughly carried him statistically, while Kobe was carrying Shaq against the Spurs and Kings.

So no

For those playing at home

2000 Finals
Shaq - 38/17/4 on 61%
Kobe - 16/5/4 on 37%

2001 Finals
Shaq - 33/16/5 on 57%
Kobe - 25/8/6 on 41%

2002 Finals
Shaq - 36/12/4 on 60%
Kobe - 27/6/5 on 51%

Yep, sure. Same.

Replace Kobe with Pippen and the Lakers probably win more rings.

Replace Pippen with Kobe and the Bulls probably implode and don't pull off the double 3peat or even come close.

Yeah, imagine Kobe trying to take shots away from MJ and then going to management and saying you need to pick between me and MJ.

It's exactly what would've happened.

^^^ Shaq had margins over Kobe of 22, 8, 9 versus 11, 12, 18 for 96-98' Jordan.

So old MJ had bigger margins over his sidekick than peak Shaq, and that's including 2000 when Kobe was just 21 years old - that's 1 year younger than Lebron's 07' Finals that you give him an age-pass for..

If we take out 21-year old Kobe, Shaq's margins don't even make double-figures each year, and he has no margin at all if we look at the 01' and 02' Playoffs overall - that's because Kobe carried load in the Western Playoffs with better stats than Shaq in 01' and 02', while no one cared about the Finals because they were a bigger foregone conclusion than the 07' or 09' Finals.

Btw, in addition to Pippen's horrible ppg and efficiency, his cluch-time production was non-existent - he went entire series without scoring a single cluch-time point (96' ECSF), while Kobe set the all-time Finals record with 8.0 ppg of clutch points for the 2000 Finals at just 21 years old.. Let that sink in and compare this natural assassin to Lebron's choking at similar ages.

Pippen told Rachel Nichols that he can't provide the spacing that centers like Hakeem need and compared himself to a bad Westbrick fit (here).

Similar to Hakeem, Shaq will fail with a bricklayer and without a "closer" like Wade or Kobe... Shaq always needed insane scoring help and goat closers, which is the opposite of Pippen...

Pippen shot 59% on FT's in the 93' Finals, so imagine him and Shaq together - it would be brickcity - Pippen can't provide the spacing that bigs like Shaq or ball-dominators like Lebron need, so he can only win with the goat shooting guard that can shoot over packed paints (doesn't need spacing).. Shooting over packed paints and therefore not needing spacing is another reason that jumpshooters > bigs and ball-dominators.

Btw, Shaq was already swept 4 times with a rich man's Pippen in Penny, and then he was swept a few more times with Eddie Jones (another Pippen comparable).. He simply needs an elite producer and dominant closer like Kobe, Wade or MJ - Pippen is the opposite of this and more like Eddie Jones caliber, or less than Penny.
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You guys just don't understand Jordan's career - there was never a night where MJ had the night off from carrying the scoring load... If he had a great scorer like Kobe, then Jordan could average 4 blocks and 5 steals - literally - and 22 points - a rich man's, clutch version of Pippen..

Or Kobe can play the Pippen role and MJ/Kobe can challenge each other (probably gamble) on who will get 5 steals and 5 blocks - who will play the Pippen role that night (the rich man's Pippen role).

The only reason why games were close was because Pippen was wetting the bed with 16 on 40% in all the 7-game series (90' ECF, 92' ECSF, 98' Finals) or 19 on 42% for his Finals career.. MJ and Kobe would erase this with better scoring, passing, spacing, clutch, defense and DOG.

There is nothing that Pippen does as well as Kobe except maybe defense but Pippen was always overrated in that area - praising Pippen's defense was the media's go-to move since his offense was rarely praisable.

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Shaq with rich man's Pippen:

1994... swept
1995... swept*
1996... swept*

* had horace grant too

"could win with pip doh", smh

Huh?

Pippen in 99 played with Barkley and Olajuwon and got beaten up badly by Shaq lakers and Kobe (first season as a starter ) .
And the lakers got swept by the spurs ….

pippen was pretty much done after that
Pippen in no way a top 20 players all time .
Pippen would never be a leader 1st option winning a title .

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51 players that are superior to Pippen based on having a top 2 finish in MVP voting and consistently better stats, accolades & dominance:

MJ
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
Curry
Jokic
Magic
Lebron
Oscar
Hakeem
Doncic
Embiid
Baylor
Durant
West
Iverson
Pettit
Malone
Barkley
Moses
KG
Dirk
Ewing
Robinson
Mourning
Gervin
Dominique
Barry
Harden
Shai
Giannis
Drexler
Kidd
Kawhi
Cousy
Nash
CP3
Unseld
Reed
Dr. J
Mikan
Westbrook
Cowens
McAdoo
Schayes
Dwight Howard
Bill Walton

7 more players that are clearly better than Pippen based on titles as 1st option, or superior stats/dominance and leading team to Finals

Isiah
Havlicek
Elvin Hayes
AD
Wade
Tatum
Ewing
Payton (more All-Defense & All-NBA than Pippen and better scorer/passer/leader/shooter/dog - no comparison)

9 more guys that had better statistical peaks and were more dominant players than Pippen:

McGrady
David Thompson
Grant Hill
Penny
Webber
Jimmy Butler
Stockton
Frazier
Lillard

34 Players that made All-NBA without needing winning spotlight of titles and were superior statistical producers than Pippen:

Ralph Sampson
Derrick Coleman
Blake Griffin
Yao Ming
Kemp
Reggie Miller
KAT
Love
Bosh
Schrempf
Larry Johnson
Chris Mullin
KJ
Tim Hardaway
Tom Chambers
Pascal Siakam
Paul Pierce
Spencer Haywood
Mitch Richmond
Melo
Jaylen Brown
Booker
Maravich
Donovan Mitchell
Alex English
Ray Allen
Kyrie
Dantley
Ben Wallace
Chauncey
Bernard King
Derrick Rose
Nate Thurmond
Tiny

^^^^ TLDR: 67 players confirmed better than Pippen and another 34 that are better producers and higher caliber of player, aka "dominant"
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Thanks Carnivore for teaching us that Shaq could never win with Pippen, since he was swept 3 times with rich man's Pippen (Penny) and also peak Horace Grant, plus two more 20-point scorers/snipers in Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott - it was a stacked team compared to any team Jordan ever had, yet Shaq couldn't go 6/6 and instead was swept 3 straight years (94-96')..

After getting swept with rich man's Pippen and the most stacked team in the league, Shaq was swept for another 3 straight years with more Pippen-like players, such as all-stars Eddie Jones and young Kobe, while also having another all-star sniper in Nick Van Exel, plus Horry, Fisher and Fox.. It was Shaq's most stacked team ever, but he was swept by the goat chemistry of Stockton, who was then defeated by the GOAT.

Who's the better player?

33/6/5/2/1 on 59/35/90 (2p%/3P%/FT%)
31/6/5/2/1 on 52/36/83

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01' Western Playoffs

Kobe........... 31.6..... 7.0... 6.2
Shaq........... 29.3... 15.3... 2.5

02' Western Playoffs

Kobe........... 26.6..... 5.9... 4.4
Shaq........... 26.4... 12.7... 2.5

Everyone knew that the 01' and 02' Finals were a bigger foregone conclusion against the weak East than the 07' or 09' Finals, so the only thing that mattered was the Western Playoffs, which Kobe led as the stats show above - Kobe carried the Lakers to the Finals as "that guy" in 01' and 02' - it's clear as day...

And Kobe was only 21 in 2000, which is a year younger than the age-pass that Lebron gets for the 07' Finals.. Yet Kobe still led the league in clutch points for the 00' Playoffs and set the record for clutch ppg in the 00' Finals with 8.0 ppg of clutch points.

MJ vs LeBron - FiNaLs ArE ThE OnLy ThiNg ThAt MattEr
Kobe - WhO cArEs AbOuT ThE FiNaLs

Depends on other stats like assisted rate, since that affects chemistry/teammate performance, and it also depends on teammates' ppg, since that affects the 1st option's burden and therefore efficiency.

We certainly wouldn't want a low-assisted 1st option (ball-dominator), since they produce low-assist teams that make it harder to win titles and are worthless in producing the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions).. Meanwhile, we like guys that can maintain good efficiency despite carrying a big burden (bum production from teammates).

No one says that the Finals are the only thing that matters because by now it's quite clear that Lebron gets destroyed in every round - he got swept 4-0 last year in the 1st round (which never happened to Jordan), and Lebron also lost a 2-1 lead to the mighty Devin Booker in the 1st Round... Then he has horrific 2nd Round losses in 08' and 10', or conference finals disasters in 09' and 24'... And then historic lottery underachievement in 19' and 22'.

Finally, Lebron is a massive loser with any sort of decent roster, such as 3-4 with preseason favorites, or 4-7 with all-star teammates, or 4-6 with Finals teams, or 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds.. He's simply the biggest loser of all-time.

Yeah, I've never heard the argument "6-0" when comparing MJ to LeBron.

^^^ That's super old thinking and that movie clip is from 2011, smh

By now, it's quite clear that Lebron gets destroyed in every round - he got swept 4-0 last year in the 1st round, and he also lost a 2-1 lead to the mighty Devin Booker in the 1st Round... Then he has horrific 2nd Round losses in 08' and 10', or conference finals disasters in 09' and 23'... And also historic lottery underachievement in 19' and 22'.

Finally, Lebron is a massive loser with any sort of decent roster, such as 3-4 with preseason favorites, or 4-7 with all-star teammates, or 4-6 with Finals teams, or 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, and 3 losses with homecourt - the goat standard is to never lose in any of these scenarios, while Lebron lost the most ever in these scenarios... So he's simply the biggest loser of all-time.

lol

If we exclude the 07', 15' and 18' Finals, Lebron still has a 20-21 record in the Finals, so his weak brand of ball has a lottery record on the championship level regardless of cast.. In those 7 Finals, he had a lottery record despite 2 all-stars as teammates, or the playoff scoring champ (modern Kareem).

Furthermore, it's easy to forget that Lebron wasn't all-defense until 2009, so the Cavs' #4 defensive ranking in 07' was due to teammates, specifically a backcourt with all-defensive accolade (Snow, Hughes) and an all-star center that routinely averaged 2+ blocks... So why would we exclude 07' when he had better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls, while also having a 2x all-star center and an acquisition that was better than 1990 Pippen?.. If anything, we should wonder why he never won with this team considering that MJ three-peated with inferior scoring and defensive help.

Similarly, the 18' Cavs had 2 franchise players in Lebron and Love, but unfortunately, Lebron's ball-dominance prevented the great fit required for a dominant champion or dynasty like other duos had, such as Curry/Klay, MJ/Pippen, or Jokic/Murray... Finally, the only reason the veteran-laden Cavs lost the 15' Finals to the bed-wetting and 1st-timer Warriors is because Lebron played exactly like Allen Iverson with worst-ever inefficiency at high volume, aka "chucking".. He also had worst-ever defense, which allowed opposing SF's to have career series and win FMVP 4 times.