LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

^^^ Klay could've done that too, and we know that he isn't ball-dominant just based on our eye test of him... So that isn't the right statistical analysis to show ball-dominance... Otoh, the stats that shed light on Klay's lack of ball-dominance would be assisted rate and time of possession.

Lebron gave Kyrie and AD the blueprint to stay healthy enough to win championships with him. Without him all they can do is be injured.

His lowest number in the playoffs in his peak was 5.8. In his first championship year it was 7.3. He's literally never had a playoff season below 5 and he's had more playoffs above 7 (3) than below 6 (1). He's only even had one full regular season where he was below 5. You're not even cherry-picking stats at this point, you're just making them up.

So what ?
In 2011 , lebron beat a 41, 56 and 62 win team and faced a team that swept Kobe championship roaster to reach the final !
Lebron won 2 games shrug, better than your top 10 Kobe that got swept ?
Kobe 23/3/2 on .458 …. Awesome Kobe ain’t ?

So LeBron get dished out but Kobe holding an actual championship roaster get swept and no problem all good lol…SMH

Btw .do you realize how insane this post is ?

Example u blame lebron losing the 09 ECF final while lebron had 20 freakin point over his second option, doing 38/8/8 ,with only 1 AS
facing a 59 win team with the AS/dpoy with 2 AS and u give **** to lebron .

Yet u praise a guy like bird winning a final where he wasn’t the mvp,
Had a 3 games stretch of 9 pts on .286% shooting where his team still won 2 games on 3 and it’s all good ?

What the fack u expect lebron to do more ?..
Yeah bird got lucky he had much better players to back up his 3 games failure while lebron had like no freakin chance …
Lebron was 38/8/8 ffs…..

See u keep cherry picking situation of lost that just makes no sense while every other players gets a pass to get gratified by winning with regular team and bad performance .

You hilarious really …

Thx for the top 10 list u provide tho

Don't be silly. Bird never got carried. Only LeBron.

I might agree except I've never seen an instance where a lottery team instantly became the best team in the league and champion upon the arrival of a star player, except 2020.. AD's' arrival on the Lakers and his 2020 season is one of the greatest individual seasons ever, yet AD gets literally zero credit.. He destroyed a future 3-time MVP in the WCF to carry the Lakers to the Finals - Jokic cut his teeth on AD - yet AD gets no credit.. The Finals was a foregone conclusion, and yet AD was still the MVP of that series by single-handedly getting the Lakers a 2-0 lead against the injured Heat team that had no chance.. Of course he carried the defense and led the entire playoffs in ppg.

Meanwhile, the duo of Lebron/Kyrie got destroyed by record amount in 2017 despite having a team with 3 franchise players and perennial all-stars... And also in 2011 and 2014... And even if you want to cry about Wade "only" being a 21/5/5 guy with 21 PER in 2014 (prime pippen caliber), Lebron still had another franchise guy in Bosh.. Unfortunately, Bosh had no capacity to step up by virtue of being reduced to spot-up role by the "bron-ball" skillset.. Imagine thinking someone is a top 10 all-time player when they have many proven instances of destroying wildly sophisticated and productive players like Bosh into spot-up shooters.. Love experienced this as well.. Or Westbrook, Ingram, Jamison, Hughes and so many more good to great players (Wade).

Regular season are the numbers that I was referring to because that's the 5x massive sample size where everyone is playing the exact same competition.. Accordingly, regular season is the most representative of the players and the best data to pull conclusions from..

When we look at this viable sample of data (regular season), we see that Curry's assisted rate is around 5 minutes and the lowest of any point guard, aside from low-scorers and back-ups.

In the playoffs, the tendency for any high-scoring ball-handler is to have their time of possession skyrocket to 8, 9, or 10+ minutes.. Virtually every high-scoring primary ballhandler did this, except Curry, who averaged barely over 6 minutes in the 2015-2024 Playoffs.. Otoh, Lebron had hold-time that reached a highest-ever 12 minutes for a playoff run or Finals - his time of possession is even worse because it's WILDLY abnormal for a forward, so teammates have less time with the ball alongside Lebron than they do alongside a typical forward.. This is why all of Lebron's teammates see declines in APG alongside him (and ppg) - his abnormal time of possession turns them into spot-up shooter, which prevents elite roster construction, chemistry and teams.

Time of possession in conjunction with assisted rate reveals a player's true load because Curry is the only player with a material on-ball load (time of possession) and also a massive off-ball load (assisted rate).. The off-ball load (assisted rate) facilitates ball movement, while a lesser on-ball load allows teammates to have the ball and play to capacity.. So thanks for that insight.

See that's the thing - everyone in history was carried by teammates (had teammates match or lead them in scoring for a playoff run), except Jordan...

So aside from Jordan, everyone is guilty of getting carried, but at least certain guys can also carry the load themselves, such as Bird, Curry, Hakeem and others that carried the scoring load on the championship level, thereby defeating max defensive attention.

Again, the ability to carry the "star" category on the championship level requires less stars to win, and also allows GM's to get more defensive help.. So carrying the scoring load is a top 10 criteria.

From 2001 - 2010 Kobe played in 23 Western Conference playoff series. 20 of the 23 were against 50-win teams. In NBA history, Kobe beat the most 50-win playoff teams, doing it 25 times.

From 2006 - 2018, Lebron played in 32 Eastern Conference series. Only 8 of the 32 teams were against 50-win teams. 7 of the 32 were teams who had a .500 record or lower.

No one played better comp than Kobe and no one faced or beat more 50-win teams.

First of all, the 2009 Magic were missing their all-star point guard Jameer Nelson in the ECF against Lebron's Cavs.

Secondly, the issue is that Lebron never won in that scenario.. Specifically, he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick.

So there's something wrong.. There's something wrong when a so-called goat never actually carried weak help over top teams in 22 seasons, and when 38/8/8 can't win as -700 favorite against and injured, 1-star team led by Dwight Howard.

So let's see what the problem was... The 2009 ECF was in the balance until Game 4 when Lebron had an astounding 7 turnovers in the 4th and OT, which made it impossible to win a tight game.... Overall, he turned into a 12 turnover per game player in clutch-time for the series, which made it impossible to win a tight series.. In addition to being butterfingers when the game got tight, Lebron had the worst-ever defensive decision to guard 6'4" Courtney Lee instead of his own position (Hedo).. It was literally the dumbest defensive move of all-time..

So these blunders explain this particular loss to the Magic, but the reason that he's never carried weak help over top teams (never beaten a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick) is because he's too ball-dominant as his scoring increases, so he can't beat top teams at high scoring levels and therefore needs all-time scoring help like Luka, Wade, AD, Kyrie (and also franchise guys at 3rd option too like Bosh and Love).. This massive need for scoring help requires more star help and doesn't allow GM's to sign defensive help - this is often the story of Lebron's teams (the neediest teams of all-time).

So playoffs are important for Tatum's assist percentage, but regular season for Steph's time in possession.

Got it.

Tatum's assisted rate was in regards to being the leading scorer for the best basketball, such as dynasties or dominant playoff runs, aka "dominant champions"... We know that the leading scorers for dynasties or dominant playoff runs had assisted rates of 47% or higher.. So Tatum's playoff assisted rate was in regards to his dominant playoff run as the leading scorer in 2024.

Otoh, the regular season numbers were the massive sample required of everyone playing the same competition, so we can pull the career assisted rate figure, which defines the player as a primary ball-handler or not.. Anyone under a 40% career assisted rate is a primary ball-handler - this fact allows us to determine the team assist rankings of the high-scoring-primary ballhandlers (ball-dominators), and therefore show that they produce low assist teams.. We can also look at regular season numbers to show that a ball-dominator like Lebron increases his teammates' assisted rate or spot-up role, thereby preventing elite roster construction, chemistry and teams.

Got it. Thanks for clearing that up. Everything is so clear now.

Boston were horrible last year during the regular season because of Tatum being 40%. Probably around 35% with all the fake assists.

LeBron, at 40, Western Conference player of the month

Not impressed.

Individual regular seasons are irrelevant to dynasties or dominant playoff runs (the best basketball), which is why low-assisted simpletons like Lebron and SGA won 60+ by dominating the ball... Tons of guys win 60 games, but that's still a far cry from a dynasty or dominant title run.

Got it.

Bulls winning 72 games, 67 games and 62 games in consecutive seasons wasn't impressive.

Also LeBron not winning 60 games when with the Heat doesn't matter at all when assessing how good he is.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Yes, the very month the league sent him the best player in the planet, aka WWE

People were saying it was WWE and then the league sends Lebron the best player in the league.. After so long, the NBA is goat-level at stacking things for Lebron.. It's just Lebron that isn't goat-level to produce an appropriate winning rate.

You said that Tatum had a low 40% assisted rate last year, yet the Celtics still had a good regular season, so I pointed out that it's common for low-assisted rates to still have good regular seasons, such as SGA or Lebron for example... But again, these individual seasons are irrelevant to whether they can produce the BEST basketball (dynasties or dominant champions)... And of course right on schedule, a higher assisted rate from Tatum was required for his team to dominate playoff competition (which demonstrates the best basketball).

Lakers were undefeated and Lebron averaged 35/11/8 on 57% FG and 52% 3P in games Luka didn’t play in the month.

Lol

Got it.

Luka has gone from an overrated star that can never win to the best player in the league.

Got it.

Individual seasons are irrelevant when determining a dominate champion, despite there being a strong correlation between winning during the regular season and being a dominate Champion.

I had forgotten about Fraudguy calling Luka an overrated perennial loser last year and constantly hating on him.

Now that he’s on LeBron’s team, the league is rigged and Luka is amazing.

Nice argument. This explains why Michael Jordan was regarded as an extremely ball dominant player early in his career. It wasn’t until Phil Jackson became head coach and implemented the triangle offense that Jordan was willing to give up the ball, at all. This is the final proof that assisted field goal % is a completely irrelevant stat, and it is the scheme, and the role of the player within that scheme, which determines their assisted field goal %.