LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)

To be fair I think the Warriors win if Draymond isn't suspended. They were something stupid like + 25pp 100 possessions when he played and had all the momentum.

Cavs still had to win it though so they deserve the credit. Every Champion needs a little luck along the way. Warriors had theirs in other years.

This is a reasonable take.

We also know enough at this point to put the blame on Draymond rather than Silver or anyone else, imo.

Maybe the do maybe they don't. They still split the other 6 games with him in the lineup including losing game 7 at home where he actually played really well. It's silly to just assume they win if he plays.The game he missed wasn't even close. LeBron and Irving played out of their minds those last 3 games.

I wouldn't even call this bad luck for them.Bad luck would be curry getting hurt not a goon doing goon things.

You said you stopped watching basketball 10 years ago. What a hypocrite. You're the player who skipped half of LeBron's career. Kind of like Jordan, who skipped half of his own career.

I watched basically every game of Jordans second 3peat. Great player when he bothered to play.

To beat any great team 3 times in a row (2 at their home) you need things to go your way with luck:

• Draymond being out
  Barnes forgetting how to shoot
  Bogut getting injured
  Curry having a shooting slump
  And most importantly you need to play out of their minds (and not get injured/foul trouble etc), which they did

We are living in a 5% timeline. You run that scenario (Warriors up 3-1) 1000 times and Cavs probably win it 50 times.

I actually think it's more impressive that KD got a 3-1 lead against a fresh Warrior team with Westbrick as his teammate, compared to Lebron going 3-0 once the Warriors were suspended and injured, while his sidekick destroyed the league MVP and "closed".

Btw, the 2010 Celtics were like the current Suns - old, washed up and massive underdog - yet Lebron lost as a -500 favorite by averaging 21 on 34% for the last 3 games in one of the biggest meltdowns in NBA history.. It isn't talked about much because of LeMedia but it happened..

Again, Lebron had a league favorite and organic juggernaut by Year 7 just like Curry, Jokic and Mj did - this required "normal" casts of 1 franchise player that relied on chemistry to win.. Lebron simply gave up on this chemistry learning curve and opted for talent based winning - he rejected the normal rosters of 1 franchise player by obtaining 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team).

So again, Lebron was the only guy colluding and hand-picking preseason favorites from 2011-2016 - Durant's only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond because it made his moves look late/desperate (warriors) or he got 2nd pickings of old and injured players (harden, kyrie).. Lebron's "decision" basically ruined KD's career but it was intentional - Klutch Sports has purposefully made everyone think that KD's collusions were the bad things while Lebron's monopoly on colluding for the previous 6 years never happened.

And yes, going 1/5 with AD is disqualifying, or having such a horrific fit with Westbrook - that was a skill deficit where Lebron lacked the off-ball game (instinct to play off teammates or expert jumpshooting skill) to fit with Westbrook.. Both Lebron and Westbrook need spacers and off-ball players, so they can't help each other.. This kind of skill deficit and inherent chemistry deficity is disqualifying...

Regarding Kobe, I guess you could say that Pau was a "franchise" player, so Kobe didn't really win with the normal 1 franchise player model, but Kobe still defeated max defensive attention in 09' and 10' (carried scoring load for playoffs and Finals of title run - 10 ppg more than all teammates) - this is quite rare and only happens on the runs that we recognize as the biggest carry-jobs ever such as 94' hakeem, 00', shaq, 03' duncan, 06' wade, 11' dirk, 19' kawhi, 21' giannis, and Jordan's 6 rings..

(we could conceivably exclude the 11' Dirk run for not quite getting to the 10 ppg threshold above all teammates in PO & Finals, and this is the case for 19' Kawhi and 21' Giannis as well - but these runs are generally viewed as carry-jobs and they were achieved with "normal" rosters of 1 franchise player, so I included them).

It's insanely lucky that Green was only suspended 1 playoff game in his career, he's had the kid gloves punishment the entire time

It's also false.

Shocking.

You ever going to acknowledge the cognitive dissonance you have over Pippen failing with a well-oiled machine while simultaneously discounting that superior machine when Jordan was at the helm? You know that MJ got to play with Pippen while Pippen got to play with Pete Myers, I assume.

Your silence is deafening.

Also, do you discount "Westbrick" when he was LeBron's running mate?

I'm pretty sure he's a baller HOF'er when he's with Bron and just a dud when with Durant (while at his peak).

I mean it's funny to all of us. You see that, right?

Actually, you probably weren't watching.

The whole "no one paid attention to the Bulls without Jordan" is obviously projection. Just bc you weren't watching, the 55 wins still happened.

its weird to me people are still responding to twog in 2024

like what do you think he's gonna do at this point?

"**** i never heard that before...thats a great point, i'm gonna move lebron into my top 3 atleast"

I dunno, i've spent time doing worse, just saying

This is another lol fidstar take. We're going to completely ignore the variance that led to the Warriors being up 3-1 as though that was 100% guaranteed to happen and proclaim that the Cavs got lucky because they won the last 3 games.

The Cavs had a significantly higher net rating in the 2016 playoffs at +9.5 compared to the Warriors at +4.4. Sure Curry missed some games, but the Warriors were just +3.0/100 with Curry, vs the Cavs at +13.7/100 with Lebron.

Also, if anything, for a long series, my general assessment is that later games are more reflective of true relative strength than earlier ones (though neither is as good as simply looking at them in aggregate) because of adjustments teams can make over time. On the whole, the Cavs were just a bit better and there isn't much evidence that either team significantly overperformed expectations.

Also, Love being concussed and being awful as a result for most of the series was certainly was a bigger deal than Draymond missing one game. Draymond was 3rd in minutes played among the Warriors and was just 7 minutes behind Klay who led the team.

I think going 1-1 in 15-16 is by far the most likely scenario. yes it doesnt look likely when the Warriors are up 3-1 but what about if you select the endpoint right before Love's arm gets broken in 2015?

1988 Pippen'............ 7.9 ppg.... 50 wins
1994 Myers.............. 7.9 ppg.... 55 wins

So I suppose 94' Pippen > 88' Jordan?

Obviously, Jordan didn't have a ready-made 3-peat system and goat franchise in 1988 - he was in the process of building that, smh... And he didn't have a "closer" in Kukoc either - a futuristic spacer that brought bigs away from the rim... Kukoc's clutch won about 15 games for the Bulls in 94' including 4 game-winners.

So the problem with the 55-win argument is that it implies that Pippen is a 55-win franchise player that can build an inexperienced lottery team into a 55-win contender, which isn't true - Pippen was simply handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever and it quickly became a .500 team - any team with a transition player or dunker as the best scorer will fall out of contention QUICKLY due to lack of talent, even a 3-peat dynasty as we saw in 95'.

It's obvious that the 94' Bulls beat the Knicks if they replaced Pippen's 22.7 on 40% and historic choking with MJ's 33 on 50% and goat clutch - so Pippen wasn't needed to beat the Knicks but MJ was - MJ beat the Knicks in 89', 92' and 96' while Pippen was outplayed by the opposing 2nd option and averaged 15 on 40% in each series - the 89' win was a massive upset over Ewing.. So Pippen was just a robotic dunker and system player that JUST HAPPENED TO BE THERE - he was easily replaceable and MJ won whether Pippen got outplayed or not as we saw in those 3 series vs the Knicks (89', 92', 96'), or many other series.

I've always said that there's many ways to skin a cat, especially when we're talking about replacing a low producer like Pippen - the Bulls could've easily replaced Pippen by upgrading Paxson slightly to a playmaking point guard like Kenny Smith-caliber (13 and 6 APG for career, includng 18/7 peak and 17th for MVP), and then replacing Pippen with..... anyone.... Horry would be perfect - a spacer and clutch alpha that Pippen wasn't... Yes, give MJ the same cast that Hakeem had (especially if we get to replace Horace with Thorpe too - heck yeah) and he 3-peats easier than he did with Pippen..

Same thing goes for other casts - if we gave MJ all-stars like Terry Porter, Duckworth, and historic defender Buck Williams, plus all-stars, HOF's and all-defenders like Ainge, Petrovic and Cliff Robinson off the bench - it's over - title every year.. The 91' Lakers had 2 Horace Grants in Vlade and Perkins (who both destroyed Grant), while also having Worthy, Byron Scott and AC Green - this is a far better cast than the Bulls... The list goes on and on - every contender had a far better cast than the Bulls..

keep in mind that Jordan lost the 89' ECF because Pippen effectively missed games 5 and 6, while the same thing happened in 1990 (migraine in game 7)... If MJ gets 10-15 points from Pippen in these games, he easily beats the Bad Boys both years, and when he finally started winning from 91-98', that's what he was getting from Pippen!!!!.. garbage like 19 on 42% for his Finals career and worst-ever shooting splits in the 93', 96' an 98' runs - MJ was forced to win with the biggest bricklayer, lane-clogger, choker and mental case ever.. He never had a good cast but the winning spotlight (ring count) inflates it.

You're kidding right?

Lebron's massive underachievement with Westbrook was due to Lebron's skill deficit, specifically his inability to fit with Westbrook due to lack of expert jumpshooting skill and instinct to play off teammates, aka off-ball...

Both Lebron and Westbrook are spotty-shooting ball-dominators that need spacers and off-ball teammates, so they can't help each other and don't fit..

This skill deficit and inherent chemistry deficit is one of the main reasons why the heliocentric skillset of Lebron/Luka/Westbrook is infact one-dimensional (ball-dominance that yields weak fits).. Accordingly, it's inferior to other skillsets that generate better chemistry and therefore win more with less like expert jumpshooters (Curry, MJ) or fundamental bigs (jokic, Duncan).

And this skill deficit is an argument for KD over Lebron - KD was skilled enough to fit with Westbrick, while Lebron wasn't.. When you combine KD's better chemistry with his superior team ceilings (he can make a team an unbeatable GOAT team), plus him outplaying lebron HU in three Finals - there's a case for KD over Lebron (if you're willing to consider the aforementioned factors and also look at the collusions objectively and realize that Lebron had a 6-year headstart and monopoly on colluding and hand-picking preaseason favorites from 11-16'... someone had to respond and durant finally did)

Let me know where anything you mentioned has anything to do with what I'm posting about. Another typical lolCandyBar post.

Anyway, as always good to hear from you xxx

On one side I often hear warriors was the greatest team ever, beating easily the bulls in 1996 supposedly and then I hear LeBron was almost a favorite being down 3-1 vs the warriors …..

So in actually Cleveland was actually the greatest team ever assemble it seem .
Candybar ftw !

I have KAJ #3 all-time, but you have to remember that his black ink, so to speak, is a bit tainted by the 70's not being all that great for basketball.

GTFO, dude. The '94 Bulls were a top-five team in the league -- if not top-three. This is uncontroversial.

If we exclude everyone over 6'9", the '96-98 Bulls had three of the top-five defenders of all-time. Three legitimate Hall of Famers and probably the GOAT coach. MJ is the GOAT, but the "he did it by himself" claims are total horseshit.

Nonsense..... I was there.

Even when they were winning 55, it was barely an eye-brow-raise when you looked at the standings in the newspaper... "Oh look, the bulls are winning games somehow"... You barely raised an eyebrow because everyone knew that whatever bubble they were having would inevitably burst, probably sooner rather than later.

Everyone had seen Pippen's true colors far too many times, so no one trusted Pippen, not even Phil Jackson - he wasn't viewed as a top tier, franchise player - not even close... Pippen was a dunker and "system" player that shot 0% on threes in the 93' Finals and 59% from the line (46% TS) - everyone remembers MJ carrying Pippen in that series and literally every other series - their stats were never close and actually the MJ/Pippen duo had the biggest statistical gap ever between a 1st and 2nd option... Everyone remembers Pippen missing three closeout games in the 89' and 90' ECF (the "migraines"), or nearly causing upset loss in 92' when X-Man dominated him, or 15 on 33% vs Dominique in 93', and the aforementioned bricklaying in the 93' Finals.

Accordingly, no one thought a dunker and transition player like Pippen was going to take over and lead the Bulls anywhere - and he didn't - after the placebo effect wore off and opponents woke up, the team was quickly a 2nd Round loser and then nothing in 95' (34-31) - they were probably lottery in 95' or 96' without MJ returning to make them the goat team.. Btw, the embarrassing meltdowns in the 2nd Round from Pippen weren't a surprise to anyone that had seen Pippen from the beginning of his career - again, no one trusted Pippen and everyone knew he was mostly a dunker (not a "go-to" player).. He could never build a contender from scratch or have a "real" 50-win team that wins 50 every year - he was simply handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever and quickly reduced the goat dynasty to nothing before MJ returned in 95'.

Lebron had Ben Wallace in 2008, and then he had Shaq in 2010... Tyson Chandler in 2019 or thereabouts... So stop touting fossil Rodman who was 36 years old

Rodman wasn't all-defense in 97' or 98' - he wasn't even the starter for the 98' Playoffs and averaged 3/8 for the 97' Playoffs.. So stop singing his praises - he was a massive liability that forced the Bulls to play 4 on 5 offensively, while Pippen was the worst bricklayer ever (see stats above) - this represents the least offensive help ever, yet Jordan 3-peated with this by carrying the biggest scoring load of all-time and playing goat-level defense as well.

Only MJ and Wilt played goat offense and goat defense for their entire prime - they're the only 2 guys where goat offense and goat defense was their STANDARD.

Jordan literally played 3 on 5 offensively during the 2nd three-peat because Rodman wasn't allowed to shoot, while Pippen averaged 17.6 on 41% for the 96-98' Playoffs and this includes the worst shooting splits anyone ever had for a playoff run of 15 games and 35 MPG (96', 98').

It's the least offensive help that anyone ever had, which is why MJ had to carry the goat scoring load (percentage of team points) and set records for clutch points on a playoff run (last 5 within 5)..

And during the 1st three-peat, we know that the Bulls and Suns both averaged exactly 106.7 ppg and 113.0 ortg, so all of Jordan's 41 ppg was needed, especially with Pippen at 46 true shooting and unable to handle additional load.. Any team that verifiably-needs 41 from their star to win has a trash cast and it's a 1-man team.... Point blank Period.

^^^ Why do people say this?.... Where is Phil's offense?? Where is the triangle?... Show me where he had success with it elsewhere aside from MJ or his clone (Kobe)?

The triangle has been REJECTED and considered a literal JOKE by other teams and franchises - they have no clue how anyone used that offense - it's considered straight GARBAGE by anyone else that used it (aside from MJ or his clone Kobe).

Phil was a 1st-time nobody coach in 90/91 when MJ won with him.. And Phil didn't have a clue - he told MJ that he wouldn't be scoring champ anymore in the triangle.. lol... MJ showed him who was running things

We can look at comparable situations to determine the truth.

Bird and Magic needed super-teams to barely hang with the Bad Boys, while MJ nearly beat the Bad Boys in 89' and 90' with nothing.

This is one of the reasons that MJ gained the goat reputation - many people thought he could beat the Pistons by himself and everyone knew that he wouldn't need much to beat them compared to what Bird/Magic needed... Again, many people thought he might win by himself in 89' or 90' and he nearly did.

The issue is that Lebron fans won't acknowledge the historical record - they won't acknowledge the long list of bad fits or weak chemistry that ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron have, which prevents his teams from becoming as good as they should be - weak chemistry caused Lebron to underperform favored rosters (lose with preseason favorites, or fall to underdog via weak record)... Otoh, Lebron fans also won't acknowledge the superior chemistry and brand of ball that expert jumpshooters have (Curry, MJ, Bird, Kobe) - they have a tremendous record of fits and chemistry, which yields better teams and Finals records.. It's intuitive but Lebron fans either don't understand the game or play dumb.

Ultimately, great chemistry and strategy wins more often, and certain skillsets yield better chemistry and strategy.. How many more decades would it take for Lebron fans to understand that his skillset lacks the chemistry required for unbeatable teams, dynasties, or 3-peats, no matter what his cast is (objectively inferior to MJ)???..... 21 years confirms that he can't mostly win with any cast and mostly loses with every cast.. How many more decades would it take before you have a sufficient sample that Lebron's skillset yields the most beatable teams ever?... 21 years is enough for me.. The story is always how another opponent hammered Lebron's team and so he needs more help - the biggest fraud in sports history.
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36-year old Rodman not allowed to shoot (4 on 5 offensively)

+

Pippen's worst-ever bricklaying and shooting splits shown above (17.6 on 41% for 96-98' Playoffs)


= worst offensive help ever

which forced MJ to play 1 on 5.... MJ always had to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) but the 2nd three-peat was at a completely goat level, and he wasn't even in his uber-prime (87-93').
.

APG

Westbrook.............. 8.6
Rondo..................... 7.9
D-Lo'........................ 5.8
Kyrie........................ 5.7
Wade....................... 5.4
MJ............................ 5.3
Pippen.................... 5.2

1st options in the 90's enjoyed all-time floor generals that averaged 10+ APG like Payton, Stockton, KJ or Hardaway, while MJ was stuck with Pippen's 5 APG..

Since Pippen passed less than other 90's sidekicks and also Lebron's sidekicks (shown above), MJ had the least passing help IN ADDITION to already having the least scoring help.

TLDR: MJ had the least scoring help and passing help
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My post was about to beat anyone great teams 3 times in a row you need a little luck (and also play well). I didn't talk about the start of the series, or any other series, or about LeBron/MJ debate specifically.

How so ?
How many times I hear LeBron made the greatest achievement ever by winning this series vs the greatest team ever with 73 wins ?
Now u claiming actually the cavs were favorites and so the greatest team ever like candybar ?

I've lived in Chicago proper for 41 years. The Rockets, Suns, Knicks, and Bulls were clearly the best teams in the league in 1993-34, iirc.

Not sure why you keep talking about Pippen's offense. I'm not.

Or Krause put together a great team with a great coach.

Look, dude, either the Bulls sucked and were a top-three team because the league sucked.

Or Jordan dominated a great era of basketball AND the Bulls were a top-three team in that era in 1994.

You can't deny that the BUlls were a top-three team in 1994, so you have to say the league sucked to make your point. but you won't do that because that tarnishes Jordan's legacy. A little trapped there, huh?

Rodman played 55 games in 1996-97.

If voting for defense matters to you so much, Rodman being 5th in DOY voting in 1998 should matter, too. A little trapped again, huh?

LeBron has less help in Cleveland the first time around than Jordan had pre-1991. This is uncontroversial.

This is one of your best points. The 1994 Suns were the only great team the Bulls ever faced in the Finals. The 1994 Suns don't compare to the 2011 Mavs, let alone the Warriors teams LeBron ran into, so strength of opponent is a bad argument.

Now, you're just being a dumbass. Yes, the triangle requires that guy, and it's magical that the Bulls ran it without an offensive post presence. This is the MJ GOAT argument. But there's no touching Phil as the GOAT coach. This is hallowed ground.

It's astonishing how little you know about defense, by the way. When you have the GOAT scorer, it doesn't matter how well the teammates perform, offensively. Krause and Phil and MJ knew this. Just stack the defense with your cap money. Especially when your toughest opponents in the conference are offensively inept (1991 Pistons, 1992-96 Knicks, 1997 Heat). The Pacers were tough in 1998 because they could actually put the ball in the basket, so it took seven games to put them away. Take away Pippen or Rodman and that's a ECF loss. Sorry, son.

Yes you claimed as much in that last post... However, the 94' Bulls were 11th in SRS and net rating - so not even a top 10 team, plus they were clearly a one-off because they quickly cratered to .500 in 95' before MJ returned, while all the other teams you mentioned remained at the top in 95' (Knicks, Rockets, Suns)..

Pippen was simply handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever and proceeded to crash the car within 18 months (.500 before Mj returned in 95').

Without offense, then a 2nd scoring option becomes "just a defender"... And that's what Pippen was far too many times when he forced MJ to beat top teams with weak scoring & efficiency (weak help).... Lebron never did that - he never beat top 5 SRS teams with weak help from a sidekick.

Do you realize that out of all the playoff runs that any NBA player ever had of 15 games and 35 MPG, Pippen holds the record for the worst shooting splits ever on 2 of those runs - and they were title runs, so MJ won with the biggest bricklaying and lane-clogging in history.... As the goat 2-point jumpshooter (mid-range), MJ had no issue shooting over packed paints and defenses, while Lebron's "stiff-arm" needs all-star spacing like Mo Williams or Ray Allen to win 60 games and MVP.

Krause understood that by having a scorer like MJ that can carry the scoring load, he just had to surround him with cheap defenders and hustlers - this is a GM's dream compared to the expensive scoring help and "closers" that Lebron needs..

It's a nightmare to find Lebron another franchise player like AD or Wade that can basically match Lebron's level and "take over" if needed.. It's a nightmare for GM's to find all the spacers for Lebron's stiff-arm and all the expensive scorers that his ball-dominance requires.. It's would be much easier if he could just carry the scoring load and therefore surround him with cheap defenders and transition dunkers like Pippen..

The problem is that Lebron is either too ball-dominant at very high scoring volumes (09' ECF), or he shoots poorly at very high volume (15' Finals), so he's incapable of carrying weak help over top teams - he never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, and also never defeated max defensive attention (never carried scoring load on championship level).. Ultimately, it's intuitive that "passers" like Magic or Lebron need all-time scoring help.

quick story on Krause.. He did have a crazy understanding of the game.. I remember when he came to visit us at Bradley in the preseason of 96-97', and he gave us this crazy defensive technique of bouncing on your toes when you're a slow defender like Kerr, so your feet are already moving when the quicker player makes their move - this is better than having to drag your feet from a stationary position to react to a quicker player - better to be bouncing already on both toes instead - it's a remarkably, and instantly effective trick for slow defenders to boost their ability to keep someone in front of them by 30%.

He averaged 3/8 in the 97' Playoffs, so MJ had to co-lead the rebounds with Rodman on that title run - both averaged 8 RPG in the playoffs, while MJ also led the APG and carried the scoring and clutch loads at goat levels..

In the 97' Finals, Jordan had the game-winner in Game 1, the "flu" game and go-ahead bucket at 25 seconds in Game 5, and then the series-winning assist to Kerr (pre-planned.. That's 3 game-winning plays in 1 series, plus record-level clutch-time scoring (last 5 within 5).

05' HUGHES....... 21.6 PER.. 4.3 BPM.. 0.157 WS/48.. 3.7 VORP... 22/6/5.. 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN......... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 0.087 WS/48.. 3.0 VORP... 16/6/5.. No All-D

^^^ If Jordan already had the East all-star center on his team and then received a HOF coach and a player that was performing better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball, he would obviously 3-peat with all that, yet Lebron had all this before entering his first playoffs in 06'!!!

Despite all this help, Lebron only won 45 games in Year 5 (2008) before adding the all-star spacer that his stiff-arm needs to have a 60-win team and MVP in 2009 - this is the same as 2013 - he needed an all-star spacer to win 60 and MVP..

By 2010, Lebron had a 3rd option that was a better scorer than Pippen (Jamison), so he had more scoring options while having better defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. Jamison is a rare 20k career scorer that outplayed Lebron in the 07' 1st Round (32/10 on 55%), so it's pretty nice to have him as 3rd option, along with better defenses, spacing and rim protection than the 1st three-peat Bulls.

09' Mo Williams..... 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 3.1 VORP.. 0.165 WS/48.. 18/3/4 on 59% ts.. 115 ortg.. 23.4 usage...... #3 team defense
90' Pippen............... 16.3 PER.. 1.8 BPM.. 3.0 VORP.. 0.087 WS/48.. 17/7/5 on 53% ts.. 103 ortg.. 21.0 usage'... #19 team defense

^^^ So it's a statistical fact that Lebron had more help on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles by winning the following year in 91', while Lebron kept losing as the favorite despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite or forming super-teams.

Lebron had 3 years to develop a veteran high seed before entering his first playoffs, while Jordan was forced into the playoffs in Year 1 with a low seed.. Not surprisingly, the first time Lebron had low seeds in 21' and 24', he lost in the 1st round (even though he had HOF teammates in their prime instead of a rookie team like Jordan).

Ultimately, Lebron was following an organic path and had a league favorite and organic juggernaut by Year 7 just like Curry, Jokic and MJ - these organic teams have "normal" casts of 1 franchise player, so they win by developing chemistry.. .Lebron simply gave up on the chemistry learning curve and opted for talent-based winning - he obtained better casts than the 1 franchise player model by putting 3 franchise players on 1 team (super-team)... That's when he started to get disrespect from everyone - people understand that Lebron had a monopoly on colluding and hand-picking preseason favorites from 11-16', and Durant's only mistake was waiting 6 years to respond.

Rodman didn't make all-defense in 97' or 98', while averaging 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs and he wasn't even the starter for the 98' Playoffs - he was 36 years old and it's like saying Ben Wallace in 2008 was a massive asset or 2010 Shaq was great...

Ultimately, MJ won chips with Horace, old Rodman, and Kukoc as starting PF's... aka Jordan needed guys that were closer to role players, instead of needing franchise players or HOF's like AD, Bosh and Love.

Btw, Larry Hughes was 5th for DPOY in 2005, so that's prime Pippen-level, while also averaging 22/6/5 on offense.. Again, if MJ already had the East all-star center like Lebron did in 05' and then received a HOF coach and a player that was performing better than 90' Pippen on both sides of the ball, he would obviously 3-peat with all that... And that's what Lebron had before he entered his first playoffs!!!!.. let that sink in..... So Lebron's 3rd-year high seeds can't be compared to Jordan's 1st-year 8 seeds.. His teams from 05-10' aren't comparable to Jordan's 80's teams or even his 1990 team - the stats confirm that Mo, Hughes Jamison and even Zydrunas were superior to 1990 Pippen offensively, while the Cavs had superior defensive rank as well.. They had superior defensive rank even in 2007, which was before Lebron was an all-defender, so the Cavs always had great defensive help.

Ultimately, Lebron never had a low seed in the playoffs because he got 3 years to develop a high seed before entering his 1st playoffs - the first times Lebron had a low seed (21' and 24'), he lost in the 1st Round.

You're just regurgitating superlatives that mean nothing - Phil isn't on "hallowed ground" because his triangle is considered a joke and embarrassingly rejected virtually everywhere - it only worked with Jordan, who made it famous, which got Phil the respect of peak Shaq plus Kobe...... But Shaq was a perennial sweep loser and massive bum - Stockton and Hornacek made him their b*tch so many times it's embarrassing - so I can't give Shaq credit - the triangle was simply nothing and won zero rings without MJ or his clone (Kobe).

The Bad Boys had 3x all-stars at every starting spot (Dumars, Isiah, Laimbeer, Aguirre and Rodman), so it was common knowledge that they had a superior cast to the Bulls', who only had 2 players that weren't outright role players.

3rd options in the 90's were 3x all-stars during the 1st three-peat (Nance, Majerle, Aguirre), or All-NBA during the 2nd three-peat (Anthony Mason, Mashburn, Schrempf), so the Bulls were always destroyed at 3rd option - Horace was killed by Vlade and Perkins in the 91' Finals, or Kersey in the 92' Finals, or Majerle and Dumas in the 93' Finals.. Meanwhile Rodman averaged 3/8 for the 97' Playoffs and Kukoc was the starter in the 98' Playoffs.. The reality is that from a scoring standpoint, Grant was more like a 4th or 5th option on other teams, and Pippen was more like 3rd or 4th.

Or we can look at rosters individually... Outside of Ewing and Starks, the Knicks had 5 guys that were equal or greater than Horace, such as Mark Jackson, X-Man, Mason, Oakley and Charles Smith.. They also had Greg Anthony, Gerald Wilkins and others - they destroy the Bulls' cast.. The same goes for the Blazers, Suns, 91' Lakers - anyone can look at these rosters and see the bevy of decorated players up and down the rosters of opponents, but only MJ/Pippen on the Bulls.. It's clear as day.. And we all know that Pippen was mostly a robot and transition player/dunker, so he was nearly a role player himself.. There's a reason that Mj had to average 5 more PPG than everyone in playoff history and have the #1 production rates (PER, WS/48, BPM, etc) and it isn't because he had a solid-producing supporting cast - he carried the team statistically more than anyone ever has.