Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
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Stop the genocide by deporting from their birth places those being genocided.
Were supporting a ceasefire, recognising a palastinian state etc. I'd like us to do a lot more but were exerting real political pressure on our government which is bearing some fruit. No-one is suggesting Israel lay does it's arms.
In the end though we're a 2nd rate power with minor influence at best.
This is all a non starter as long as violent resistance groups that dont want peace (they want victory) have the influence, power and support they do in Palestinian society. And completely ignoring this aspect of the problem for 80 years, and directly and indirectly supporting these groups, is how we got here.
This is not France/Algeria or USSR/Afghanistan. Israeli Jews are not going to decide the juice isn't worth the squeeze and leave if popularly supported Palestinian resistance groups decide to keep fighting indefinitely. They are eventually going to decide the bad faith peace process isn't worth the squeeze and abandon it entirely.
There's multiple explanations other than these two. What would it say if in their 57 years and 40 humanitarian missions they had never offered a solution before?
You don't have anywhere close to enough knowledge to narrow it down to these two options.
Fwiw I agree that USA cutting off Israel probably doesn't lead to the outcome they want.
sometimes you just gotta fund and weaponize an apartheid occupation force doing plausible genocide for the greater good.
sometimes you just gotta do some light genocide to stop a real bad genocide.
I read the article. I saw the pictures. I want the conflict to stop. Not just this little flare up; but the running 80 year conflict.
That is why the solution is to get the Palestinians out of there. That is how the conflict stops. Not cutting off support for Israel. And if you think giving groups like IRI, Hamas, Hezbollah political wins is how you get the conflict to stop, I would say you are insane and dangerous.
But honestly, I think I am in the minority that actually wants the confl
As good as the article was I imagine actually being there is a completely different experience. You can think the doctors in the article are completely wrong in their opinions and still come up with explanations other than them being devious or stupid for (probably) being wrong.
sometimes you just gotta fund and weaponize an apartheid occupation force doing plausible genocide for the greater good.
Stop trolling
no Im really interested in how if the US stopped providing weapons that would somehow not "lead to the outcome they want".
and Im really interested in why its ok to circumvent international law to arm and criminal apartheid occupation.
This is all a non starter as long as violent resistance groups that dont want peace (they want victory) have the influence, power and support they do in Palestinian society. And completely ignoring this aspect of the problem for 80 years, and directly and indirectly supporting these groups, is how we got here.
This is not France/Algeria or USSR/Afghanistan. Israeli Jews are not going to decide the juice isn't worth the squeeze and leave if popularly supported Palestinian resistance groups dec
It's always a non-starter until it happens.
I'd agree netanyhau has got you near the point of no return and there's no way netanyahu is stopping. If trump comes to power then who knows where it will end. maybe netanyahu can drag america into another big war. They always end well and israel will still have to cope afterwards.
Ignoring the inflammatory rhetoric, it is a much better, more humane solution than supporting a never ending generational war of conquest over a economically and militarily more advanced civilization that consider themselves native (you are free to disagree, but this is how many/most Israelis view themselves) with nowhere else to go.
The insane thing is the "magic dirt" the Palestinians have been fighting to conquer the last 80 years is completely worthless. And the climate is increasingly unlivable. Israel building a functional society out of mostly worthless desert was a remarkable achievement, that took a lot of unique things to go right. There is nothing to suggest even if they somehow created a functional state that wasn't at perpetual war with Israel things would look much better than they are now.
Just because someone's great grandfather owned an olive grove in Haifa 100 years ago, that is probably now a used car dealership anyways seems like a real bad reason to keep supporting this conflict indefinitely. Time to move on.
no Im really interested in how if the US stopped providing weapons that would somehow not "lead to the outcome they want".
Because Israel might not stop still... how is that difficult to figure out?
and Im really interested in why its ok to circumvent international law to arm and criminal apartheid occupation.
Ask someone who is arguing this then and stop trolling me in the meantime.
As good as the article was I imagine actually being there is a completely different experience. You can think the doctors in the article are completely wrong in their opinions and still come up with explanations other than them being devious or stupid for (probably) being wrong.
I would guess they are activists who have a naive, dangerous (IMO) understanding of how the world works.
There is no way your solution would be the US specifically should stop supporting Israel and the bombs will stop, without that being your ideological priors coming in. It is really asinine to suggest being there gave the doctors some kind of insight this is the geopolitical key that unlocks the puzzle.
So I guess that falls under the "stupid" umbrella. I am sure I could have couched my language better, but the meaning would be the same anyways even if I did.
Honestly, international laws (as it is currently being realized) seems to be part of the problem, not the solution. At this point I am more interested in finding solutions to the problem than listening to some (probably) corrupt judges living 10,000 miles away.
The amusing thing is Victor has admitted he agrees the current iteration (and probably every iteration) of international law is not a solution; and only cynically supports international law when he perceives it works in his interests.
I'm trying to think of something which doesn't fit that criteria. What won't he criticize even if it disagrees with him?
Because Israel might not stop still... how is that difficult to figure out?
Ask someone who is arguing this then and stop trolling me in the meantime.
if you are arguing that the USA should continue sending weapons to Israel then that necessarily means they are arming a criminal apartheid regime.
Why did you preface that with "if"?
Honestly, international laws (as it is currently being realized) seems to be part of the problem, not the solution. At this point I am more interested in finding solutions to the problem than listening to some (probably) corrupt judges living 10,000 miles away.
The amusing thing is Victor has admitted he agrees the current iteration (and probably every iteration) of international law is not a solution; and only cynically supports international law when he perceives it works in his interests.
International law is a tool of the Western Imperial powers for subjugating other countries and people. the fact that Israel was actually condemned by it shows how appalling and blatantly illegal their conduct has been.
Answer the question.
Why are you now asking this question too?
Bc your position is not clear. Your initial post indicated you supported arming Israel. Then you said you didn't.
Do you?
The best way to serve the Palestinians is just to let them move on. Resettle them.
Barring that, completely demilitarize Palestinian society. Take away all the rockets and rifles and terror tunnels. Do whatever it takes to get here. Bring in 1 million UN troops if necessary.
Then IF the Palestinians actually want their own state alongside Israel (I am actually pessimistic this is the case) you put all the pressure on Israel it takes to make this happen. I actually dont think it would take much pressure. I think if the world showed an actual commitment to a real peace Israel would jump at the chance and make real concessions (just not the maximal concessions actors like Hamas demand)
I see nothing in this which suggests what you are saying:
Fwiw I agree that USA cutting off Israel probably doesn't lead to the outcome they want.
And certainly does not warrant this trolling:
sometimes you just gotta fund and weaponize an apartheid occupation force doing plausible genocide for the greater good.
Bc your position is not clear. Your initial post indicated you supported arming Israel. Then you said you didn't.
Do you?
So no, I did not initially indicate that, and I did not then say that I didn't. The important thing here is that instead of discussing the topic at hand, you decided you would rather shame me based on morals you have assigned to me. STOP TROLLING.
So you don't support arming Israel?
It was an easy clarification, and it's been clarified: stop trolling. PW you can make use of that clarification as well.
USA is addicted to starting and causing wars, selling their weapons for wars, and then earn big money rebuilding what has been destroyed during wars...
Oil anywhere? USA #1 will soon be there, with ****tardry and greed as the only two valid reasons.
Without all of that **** you pull from your safe space across the ocean, ROW would be a much much better place everywhere.
Trump will surely bring the much needed change in your deranged country.
Now it's time for me to leave this thread for at least a few days again, and think about my motivation to post this harsh truth on a forum formerly known as american...
It was an easy clarification, and it's been clarified: stop trolling. PW you can make use of that clarification as well.
So what’s the answer? If it’s easy, why not give it? Are you trolling?
Do you support the US arming/ supplying Israel with its weapons that it uses to kill innocent Palestinian civilians?
This was explained already:
The important thing here is that instead of discussing the topic at hand, you decided you would rather shame me based on morals you have assigned to me. STOP TROLLING.
You do not need to know my views on that topic to discuss the topic at hand. You are trying to move the topic to a different topic: whatever you feel you can you shame me about. Even after you having it explained several times now you insist on it. Stop trolling.
