Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]Edit: RULES FOR THIS THREAD
Posting guidelines for Politics and Soci...
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Please be aware this thread is strictly moderated[/quote]
Address content and not each other or there will be timeouts. Thank you
International law is a tool of the Western Imperial powers for subjugating other countries and people. the fact that Israel was actually condemned by it shows how appalling and blatantly illegal their conduct has been.
I assume we should be glad we have you to differentiate for us the 95% of the time international law is working for the evil Western world, and the 5% of the time it is on the side of the oppressed good guys.
the content is that 2 American doctors made this assertion
The moment the United States cuts off military aid to Israel the bombs will stop falling and the troops will withdraw.
There's multiple explanations other than these two. What would it say if in their 57 years and 40 humanitarian missions they had never offered a solution before?
You don't have anywhere close to enough knowledge to narrow it down to these two options.
Fwiw I agree that USA cutting off Israel probably doesn't lead to the outcome they want.
so, putting aside the reasonable inferences of personal preference in this bolded statement, I am curious why it probably would not lead to the outcome they want.
there are 2 parts to this. firstly, what do the doctors want? I believe they want the death of children and Gazans to stop. secondly, why would the cessation of military aid not lead to the outcome they want (whatever that may be, although as I said, I think they want the death to stop, but maybe others intepret their wants differently)?
the content is that 2 American doctors made this assertion
The moment the United States cuts off military aid to Israel the bombs will stop falling and the troops will withdraw.
so, putting aside the reasonable inferences of personal preference in this bolded statement, I am curious why it probably would not lead to the outcome they want.
there are 2 parts to this. firstly, what do the doctors want? I believe they want the death of children and Gazans to stop. secondly, why would the cessatio
The most immediate reason is that Netanyahu has spent the last year emphasizing that Israel is not a US vassal state, and other nations cannot manipulate Israel through US policy. So out of principle, he would probably intensify the war effort in the hypothetical the US tried to pressure Israel this way.
Also, I would say many western activists do want "death" to stop; but more important to them is fortifying what they perceive as the Palestinian cause. And they aren't interested in solutions that end hostilities but weaken the cause, which are the best humanitarian solutions.
The fact Israel went after Houthis so hard, not consulting with the US at all and coordinating with Saudi Arabia, after the US spent the last several months pussy footing around I think emphasizes the first point.
Your "reasonable inferences of personal preference in this bolded statement" are incorrect. While they might seem reasonable to you, they are actually unreasonable.
It is clear what you are doing with that phrase. Stop trolling.
Your "reasonable inferences of personal preference in this bolded statement" are incorrect. While they might seem reasonable to you, they are actually unreasonable.
It is clear what you are doing with that phrase. Stop trolling.
what I was doing was backtracking on my initial statement and giving the benefit of the doubt. I am still interested in your answer however,
The most immediate reason is that Netanyahu has spent the last year emphasizing that Israel is not a US vassal state, and other nations cannot manipulate Israel through US policy. So out of principle, he would probably intensify the war effort in the hypothetical the US tried to pressure Israel this way.
Also, I would say many western activists do want "death" to stop; but more important to them is fortifying what they perceive as the Palestinian cause. And they aren't interested in solutions t
Dun gave a good answer, but I disagree with his bolded bc we have seen that Israel simply does not have the weaponry to immediately intensify efforts without the USA. maybe they can get weapons from China or Russia or North Korea but that takes time. maybe some other country or Israel itself could ramp up production but again, that takes time.
thus far, as with al Mawasi massacre, we see that every time a new shipment arrives from the USA then Israel bombs a lot more.
I also think you are incorrect about the motivations of at least one of those particular doctors. this statement is typical of liberal Zionists and not a hardcore Palestinian activist who would never say such a thing about Israeli society.
what I was doing was backtracking on my initial statement and giving the benefit of the doubt. I am still interested in your answer however,
No, I disagree. It reads to me like even after you were explicitly told to stop you decided to restate it in a manner you thought will slide past. Feel free to figure out a way to ask whatever question you have without the loaded nonsense attached to it.
The Yemeni port:
the content is that 2 American doctors made this assertion
The moment the United States cuts off military aid to Israel the bombs will stop falling and the troops will withdraw.
There's multiple explanations other than these two. What would it say if in their 57 years and 40 humanitarian missions they had never offered a solution before?
You don't have anywhere close to enough knowledge to narrow it down to these two options.
Fwiw I agree that USA cutting off Israel probably doesn't lead to the outcome they want.
I am curious why it probably would not lead to the outcome they want.
there are 2 parts to this. firstly, what do the doctors want? I believe they want the death of children and Gazans to stop. secondly, why would the cessation of military aid not lead to the outcome they want (whatever that may be, although as I said, I think they want the death to stop, but maybe others intepret their wants differently)?
also, what outcome do you think it will probably lead to?
They state in the article that they want the conflict to end. I think they're hyper focused on Gaza since they were exiting there after clearly being traumatized, so we can expand that to mean that they want all of the conflicts in that area to end, not just Gaza.
I do not believe that if USA stopped supplying Israel with aid that Israel would immediately pull out. Bibi and others have explicitly said the opposite. Also the bombs are not the greatest threat to Gaza. We have already seen the beginning stages of famine there, which was ended largely due to international pressure. I think it is possible that if USA and Europe gave up all leverage they have over Israel then Israel could blockade Gaza completely and allow no aid in resulting in the opposite of what the doctors want.
Furthermore if USA and others cut off Israel completely, it could lead to increased attacks by Houthis and Hezbollah, and the conflict could escalate even further, resulting in far more death which is the opposite of the outcome I believe the doctors want.
Dun gave a good answer, but I disagree with his bolded bc we have seen that Israel simply does not have the weaponry to immediately intensify efforts without the USA. maybe they can get weapons from China or Russia or North Korea but that takes time. maybe some other country or Israel itself could ramp up production but again, that takes time.
thus far, as with al Mawasi massacre, we see that every time a new shipment arrives from the USA then Israel bombs a lot more.
I also think you are inco
If Israel chose to "go rogue" and were 1/10 as genocidal as you claim they are; there are a lot of options. For example, they could just turn off the water and electricity in all of Gaza. They could do this anytime they choose. They could even set up refugee camps in the desert for non combatants and let Hamas sit and spin in Gaza without water and electricity all they want.
Given that Israel has dropped enough firepower to destroy all of Gaza several times over, and hasn't come close to this, I think it is fair to say that has not been their aim with all the bombs the US has provided. But I am pretty confident that if it came to it they have plenty of old "dumb" bombs to just completely destroy Gaza.
Also, independent of the motivations of the doctors, the goal of this article is to persuade an American audience to pressure the American govt to pressure Israel to unilaterally ceasefire without achieving their aims, or getting any assurance we wont just have to go through this again a few years down the road.
And Americans are overwhelmingly "zionists," so even if the doctors ultimate aims were destruction of Israel from the river to the sea, they certainly would not explicitly say this in the article.
If Israel chose to "go rogue" and were 1/10 as genocidal as you claim they are; there are a lot of options. For example, they could just turn off the water and electricity in all of Gaza. They could do this anytime they choose. They could even set up refugee camps in the desert for non combatants and let Hamas sit and spin in Gaza without water and electricity all they want.
Given that Israel has dropped enough firepower to destroy all of Gaza several times over, and hasn't come close to thi
they already completely obliterated Gaza and reduced aid to a trickle. and now it looks a polio epidemic is imminent. theres question on if they introduced it or just created the circumstances for it.
but again, like we have been saying, just bc the genocide is not immediate does not mean that the term does not apply. yes, Israel could be killing people faster.
the content is that 2 American doctors made this assertion
The moment the United States cuts off military aid to Israel the bombs will stop falling and the troops will withdraw.
I am curious why it probably would not lead to the outcome they want.
They're Americans, so they think the whole world revolves around the US, which it doesn't. Israel regards the US as useful, but as soon as the US ceases to be useful (which is not in prospect) it will necessarily be discarded. Israel managed quite well for 20 years before the US, for its own reasons, started handing Israel diplomatic support and military kit like the F-4E Phantom. Up to then, Israel was more dependent on Britain and France (who suspended arms sales after Israel's 1967 aggression). Israel has a strong indigenous arms industry. It can't produce jet fighters any more, the way it once reverse-engineered the Mirage V, because these aircraft have become too complex, but, even in the event of a US boycott, which isn't going to happen, Israel could probably keep its US fighters flying, as Iran still seems to be operating F-4s and F-14s after many decades of US sanctions.
International law is a tool of the Western Imperial powers for subjugating other countries and people.
Unfortunately, once you take that view, all your claims of 'genocide' fall, because there is no such crime unless there is such a lawful jurisdiction.
the fact that Israel was actually condemned by it shows how appalling and blatantly illegal their conduct has been.
Good heavens. You're suddenly interested in international law again. Mais quelle surprise, quelle enorme surprise, et quelle surprise encore.
Unfortunately, once you take that view, all your claims of 'genocide' fall, because there is no such crime unless there is such a lawful jurisdiction.
Good heavens. You're suddenly interested in international law again. Mais quelle surprise, quelle enorme surprise, et quelle surprise encore.
in the past people were banned for calling Israel an apartheid state, an occupation, a criminal state, a racially segregated state, and a genocidal state. now that International Law has weighed in those terms now apply.
further, violent resistance is legal under International Law so again, in the past, sometimes support of the Gazan Resistance and/or Oct 7 was punished. IL now shows that it was legal.
thats the scope of my interest in it.
October 7 was not legal. This does not change that.
Armed resistance is legal against an occupying force. Israel was just recently deemed an occupying force in Gaza by the International Courts.
You might have missed it bc it was not very well reported but I can provide links if need be.
It is not that simple. October 7th being a terrorist act makes it illegal.
you're not any legal or moral authority
Good contribution!
It was an illegal terrorist act. This does not change that.
go read a book instead of posting on a dead message board all day and/or touch grass
