LeBron > Jordan GOAT Super AIDS Containment, solved #22999 post by Matt R. (addendum #23174)
Very impressed with the minute sequence where LeBron clearly lost the ball headed to the rim, heat got the ball anyway and scored, then he elbows his defender in the chin, drawing a defensive foul and stern talking to from the official and hitting a 3.
It's these ref assisted 5 point swings in close games that truly bring out the best in great players.
Link to post of why Elon Musk is the true GOAT: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showp...
The thread that will go on for years..........
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I never made the comparison. Perhaps you are reading too much into the discussion, that is "he brought up Kobe when everybody knows Lebron is better than Kobe!"
I only asked why Lebron has under performed winning titles, 4 in 20 years. In comparison to others, is under performing IMO. You apparently disagree and are satisfied that Lebron has only won 4 in 20 years, for whatever reason(s).
If titles were a real barometer to who is the greatest then every single Jordan fan should say Bill Russell is the GOAT.
But zero Jordan fans think that, therefore using titles is the single barometer for who sits at the top is disproven argument.
Tatum’s presence on the bench while complaining about playing time and enlisting his family to publicly attack the coach actually built the organic team chemistry needed to win the Gold.
He missed all his jump shots because LeBron-ball makes players worse, with the exception of Curry, who is the real team leader and cancels the negative effects of LeBron-ball. Finally, LeBron shooting 66% and leading the team in almost every category was the reason they almost lost.
Kobe's finals FG% is 40%, GOAT level.
Interesting that you would say Kobe going 25/6/5 on 40% in the finals is GOAT level, but Bron going 28/10/8 on 48%FG in the finals is not GOAT level.
When did I ever claim that Lebron did not put up GOAT level #s? I only claimed that 4 rings in 20 years was an under achievement.
If titles were a real barometer to who is the greatest then every single Jordan fan should say Bill Russell is the GOAT.
But zero Jordan fans think that, therefore using titles is the single barometer for who sits at the top is disproven argument.
I never claimed anything of the sort, you are mixing up me with carnivore who brought up Horry's 7 titles as supporting the claim that Lebron's 4 titles in 20 years was not under achieving.
Even at age 39.5, Lebron doesn't have to be a towel boy on team USA because he was a top 5 player on the court for the team. Consistently. The last time the US team made the mistake of not giving James big minutes was the last time they didn't win the gold. A few players could've gotten the MVP, but he was the team's leader without question.
Kobe by comparison was such a team cancer that he ran Shaq out of town, and then at the end of his career, pissed around chucking bricks and over his f
Comparing Lebron's Olympic performance to Kobe's NBA performance?
Obviously, that's not fair or valid.
There's absolutely no reasonable case for him being the #2 player of all time, unless you're 7 years old and have 14 posters of him on your wall.
Here's the case for Kobe from a pure basketball standpoint;
No one possesses the all-around scoring ability of MJ or Kobe because there have never been backcourt players who dominated the post like them.. This all-round scoring ability allowed Kobe to average 30 in the triangle and win titles with it, which is a goat achievement.. And even though there's a significant gap between MJ and Kobe, Kobe is the closest thing we've seen to MJ, which is partly why he's #2 in many people's minds.. (yes, MJ was head-and-shoulders above everyone in history).
Secondly, there's ring quality.. Even though Kobe teamed up with another franchise player (pau) to win back-to-back titles, Lebron teamed up with 2 franchise guys to go back-to-back.. Kobe's expert jumpshooting skill and goat scoring diversity fit with anyone to produce great chemistry, so he could win with less than Lebron.. Goat scorers must foster great chemistry and that's what Kobe did, which made him a less needy player than Lebron..
Thirdly, the superior chemistry produced higher team ceilings - Kobe produced "unbeatable" teams that mostly won for stretches, while Lebron's inherently-weak chemistry cannot produce "unbeatable" teams and mostly loses with every cast that he plays with.
Fourthly, Kobe was a "closer", while Lebron needed "closers" like Kyrie, Wade, Curry, Boobie and even AD being the "closer" against Jokic in 2020.
Btw, in addition to a superior brand of ball and chemistry, Kobe won with less because he could drop 40 while the ball moves via expert jumpshooting skill - this allowed him to maintain sufficient brand at high scoring levels, so he could carry the scoring load against top teams.. Otoh, Lebron is too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, thereby needing more scoring help (more star help).
I'd be surprised if there was ever even a 5 year stretch of NBA history where Kobe was in the top 2 of player value metrics.
Advanced stats aren't everything.
Nash had horrible PER and advanced stats, yet he won MVP in 05'... It's amazing how Amare was the statistical juggernaut and Lebron-like physical force that carried the team, yet the low-producing "setup guy' got the MVP... That would be like Stockton getting MVP over Malone..
And stockton completely DESTROYS nash across the board in advanced stats - it's stunning, yet no MVP for Stockton because history shows that the statistical juggernaut and physical force gets the MVP's (Amare, Lebron, MJ, etc), not the lower-producing setup guy.. The Suns' turnaround in 05' can be directly traced to getting rid of "cancer" Marbury (similar to getting rid of Westbrook) and also Amare's coming out party as the "next big thing".
Guy finished in the top 2 in MVP twice in his career, and yet somehow he's magically number 2 all time.
I don't mind bumping Kobe down a few spots to top 5-ish, but the group-think of a few dozen media members has never been a viable argument for or against a player - media accolade shouldn't mean much in comparisons or GOAT debates.. It's a tertiary argument at best - not the primary or secondary arguments.
If the media could go back to 89', 90', 93' and 97, they would've given the MVP to Jordan.. There are so many MVP's that should've gone to someone else - it means little - and also the MVP award will cater to certain players that have favorable situations for MVP.. MVP isn't the "best player award", in which case Kobe would've won many years.
But make another 7000 posts about how much you hate Lebron James and how much it clouds all of your thinking 24/7.
I don't hate Lebron as a person - he's obviously a likeable guy and good dude in general, although clearly a little bit a douchebag, insecure, sensitive, non-competitive, melodramatic, while desiring to be coddled and take short cuts.
But otherwise, I only hate him in the "entertainment sense" or "entertainment world"... That's the whole point of it.. It's entertainment and I hate him in that world that we all go into to entertain ourselves.. But as a person, I'm sure he's a great guy.. Indeed, I entertain myself by shitting on his game, and he gets paid handsomely for being a "pro" like this - a primary part of being a "pro" is that your performance is subject to criticism.
That's all I do - I criticize him in the entertainment sense.. I've never gotten personal aside from saying he had a coddled childhood once he was "discovered".. He also had an easy road by getting 100 million to set up his empire before taking a single NBA dribble, so he didn't have to prove himself to get generational wealth like Jordan did (no pressure).. Jordan had to prove he was GOAT to barely get 30 million a year at the end of his career.
Ultimately, Lebron cheated the system by opting for talent-based winning (all-star team strategy) and therefore never learned how to WIN (developing great chemistry and effective basketball over time).. He gave up on the chemistry learning curve required to win with "normal" teams of 1 franchise player and opted for better teams with 3 franchise players (super-team), aka talent-based winning, aka all-star team strategy.. Otoh, Kobe was goat at chemistry and fitting with players because his goat scoring diversity allowed it, and he also took the time to learn the chemistry (he didn't team-hop and pursue talent-based winning).. Kobe had the skills and patience to learn how to win, and Lebron didn't - that's why Kobe is better.
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So wait... Curry is top 10 now?... Just like I've been saying for a few years now?
and ANOTHER one
Tatum’s presence on the bench while complaining about playing time and enlisting his family to publicly attack the coach actually built the organic team chemistry needed to win the Gold.
He missed all his jump shots because LeBron-ball makes players worse, with the exception of Curry, who is the real team leader and cancels the negative effects of LeBron-ball. Finally, LeBron shooting 66% and leading the team in almost every category was the reason they almost lost.
apt pupil
Kerr is a busy man... He doesn't have time to figure things out.. He isn't a philosopher.. Most people aren't... So Kerr does what most people do - he watches TV and is influenced by what he sees... And the media only covers Lebron, so he's been influenced by that and therefore allows the team to run "bron-ball" instead of the ball-movement and winning style of 'tatum-ball"..
This leaves Tatum out in the cold - he's obviously the biggest casualty of bron-ball, but not the only casualty - every s
How does expert jump shooter Tatum go 0-16 on jumpshots in the olympics?
LeBron shooting 66% and leading the team in almost every category was the reason they almost lost.
Imagine if the US had the same brand of ball and chemistry that Serbia or Germany has.. If brand of ball and chemistry was equal, we would destroy them by a massive amount that matches our talent advantage.
But instead we're barely winning because a weak brand of ball is underachieving our favored talent.... And bron-ball is the only weak brand and low-team-assist brand on the team, except Haliburton.. Everyone else plays off-ball, so the US would have zippy ball movement without bron-ball holding them back..
Off-ball guys like KD, Curry, and Booker give the US the capacity to be like the 2014 Spurs with zippy ball movement.. Unfortunately, it's bball 101 that ball-domination kills ball movement, so Lebron's presence hurts chemistry and ultimately, margin of victory.
My post above stated that I had Curry top 5 for several years now, which is true - here's a thread from 2021:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthr...)
Curry proved me wrong, which is one of the reasons that I knew he was that good... Otoh, Lebron has never proved me wrong, which how I know he's a fraud.
In late 2021 (the start of the 2022 season), I saw the light when I saw that Curry somehow had the best team in the league with confirmed losers like Poole and Wiggins as the best players.. It dawned on me that Curry actually fulfilled all my criteria (off-ball, ball movement, goat chemistry, etc)... So it was a quick fix, hence the thread above...
(the giannis thing at #10 was very temporary and simple recency bias - the impetus for the thread was to show that I had come around on Curry.. my rankings have only changed marginally since then, such as putting giannis out of the top 10 and putting Curry over Russell... ultimately, the best expert jumpshooters won with less than the best bigs, who won with less than the best ball-dominators, so my current top 10 show this hierarchy, aka the best jumpshooters > the best centers > the best ball-dominators, based on who needed the least help to win.. this is one of the only top 10 rankings you will see that have clear-cut criteria).
If you've ever played on an organized basketball team that people care about (where **** matters), then you'll know that coaches are often confidence-killers, even for super-alpha guys, let alone guys like Tatum.
If you're getting 3 minutes here and 30 seconds there, it's tough to get going.. I would like to see how Lebron reacts to a coach that is crapping on him and treating him like a towel boy... He would probably just walk off the court and quit.. Surely the great Lebron James wouldn't stand for it.. Tatum doesn't have the media protection to pull that off without massive blowback, so he didn't walk off - but that's probably how he felt, and it translated to his on-court play.
Btw, if you're looking on that other site, my screenname is currently "3ba11", but it used to be "3ball"
However, the mods stole the "3ball" screen name and I haven't had access to it since around 2020... So any thread by 3ball before 2020 is me (the real 3ball), and every thread after 2020 is the mods..
This is the kind of thing mods do to some posters.. even in this thread... I've always maintained that the posts that began this thread by "trainwreckog" where fake or altered posts by the mods, who deleted thousands of my posts and kept just a couple fake ones to start this thread with.
It's okay.. It's all water under the bridge, however I will sue the other site if I start a youtube page and issues arise, aka "you said this in 2022" when it was really the mods that had overtaken my account since 2020.. They don't post much on it, but they post from time to time and make the occasional fake thread... Everyone on that site knows that "3ball" is no longer me and hasn't been me for years... "3ba11" is me now.. I've asked them to give me my old account back (because "3ball" is obviously the better name), but I get ignored.
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Last 2 games vs Serbia and France:
4th quarter vs Serbia and France
You know Fraudguy doesn’t watch the games when he posts a graphic that says LeBron had 2 pts combined in the 4th quarter of the Serbia and France games.
You know Fraudguy doesn’t watch the games when he posts a graphic that says LeBron had 2 pts combined in the 4th quarter of the Serbia and France games.
I mistyped, but it's even worse - the numbers are from the last 3 minutes of the 4th quarter!!..
Curry with 19 points in the last 3 minutes of the 4th against Serbia and France, compared to 2 for LeFraud.
Btw, if you're looking on that other site, my screenname is currently "3ba11", but it used to be "3ball"
However, the mods stole the "3ball" screen name and I haven't had access to it since around 2020... So any thread by 3ball before 2020 is me (the real 3ball), and every thread after 2020 is the mods..
This is the kind of thing mods do to some posters.. even in this thread... I've always maintained that the posts that began this thread by "trainwreckog" where fake or altered posts by the mods,
Don't worry, 2+2 is only freaking out over my browsing history.
You don't qualify.
Chilltown is a SuperMegaElitePoster.
fallguy has been perma-banned 250 times.
Kawhi number 8 all time. Excellent...
I hadn't bothered to look at the list but this made me literally laugh out loud so thought I'd take a look. I like how everyone on that site also realises how much of a clown fallguy is and either just posts completely off topic stuff or makes fun of him for how ridiculous the list is.
I forgot about that one..
Admittedly, the criteria that I developed to legitimately rank Lebron outside of the top 10 took years to fully flesh out.. The idea was to create a top 10 that excluded Lebron, where comments that de-legitimize the list were impossible, such as "Kawhi number 8.. Excellent".
And I eventually succeeded in creating a legit option for a top 10 list that didn't include Lebron, and it didn't have any clear-cut discrepancies or holes in the logic.
Ultimately, if we rank the top 10 based on the skillsets that needed the least help to win, then Lebron is outside the top 10.. We know that high-scoring ball-dominators like Oscar, Luka and Lebron struggle with chemistry and therefore need exorbitant help to win.. For this reason, the best ball-dominators are behind the best centers, who trail the best expert jumpshooters... (MJ, Kobe, Bird, Curry, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Magic)..
Magic actually wasn't a high-scoring ball-dominator and he's the only player in history that truly played all 5 positions on the offensive end - he's hard to rank, but his nearly-losing Finals record confirms him and Kareem can't be ranked too closely to each other - they can't both be top 5 for example, given their weak Finals record.
At what point can acknowledge that the French are ******ed and not artsy.
I mistyped, but it's even worse - the numbers are from the last 3 minutes of the 4th quarter!!..
Curry with 19 points in the last 3 minutes of the 4th against Serbia and France, compared to 2 for LeFraud.
Your ability to only look at the tiniest sample sizes and ignore everything thing else is remarkable.
Player hater HoF, given your drive to post on a million forums and usernames I think you might be the goat hater
