Israel/Palestine thread

I genuinely think it can only be an Arab country whose interests somewhat align with the Western world, I know, there's like 1? I don't think it could ever be Israel for obvious reasons and I haven't given India much thought.

You essentially need Arab-Muslims to convince fellow Arab-Muslims that Israel and the Jews aren't all that bad. I believe MBS was in talks with Israel for ''normalizing relations'' and brokering some 'large'' deals between the 2 countries, that would seem like the most obvious choice.

How realistic this is I don't know. It seems like MBS has exactly 0 interest in governing Gaza and the WB.

India buys cheap energy from Russia and Iran, and weapons from Russia. Many Hindu Indians hate Muslims, so they might post pro Israeli memes on social media for this reason, but politically the Indian govt has no geopolitical reasons to get involved on the side of Israel, and a lot of reasons not too. If push came to shove India would most likely side with the Axis of Resistance and Hamas for geopolitical reasons.

Regardless, there is no country, Arab or otherwise, that wants anything to do with occupying Palestinians. They are too radicalized and too violent. No one wants to subject their own young men to such a dystopian violent, political culture. Israel will do it because they dont have a choice. The alternative is 10/7 happening again. But everyone else that does have a choice, forget it.

And this isn't even getting into the fact that even if some Muslim govts might cooperate with Israel and the US for geopolitical reasons, the majority of the populace of pretty much every Muslim country is tremendously antisemetic as a matter of principle, and supportive of Hamas and radical Islamism in general, so it would be political suicide for any Muslim govt to appear like they are siding with Jews over Muslim Islamists.

ya lets jus outsource the genocide to Indians. how conditioned are Westerners? just dump the dirty jobs on the foreigners and wipe your hands of it.

Israel is blundering this. They have been for a long time, probably since the start. This will go down as how not to conduct a counter insurgency. They had the mistakes from USA and other countries to learn from, they had advice on how to conduct a successful counter insurgency. They chose to ignore all of this and do it the way that has always failed in the past, and what we are seeing is a very unsurprising failure.

If the world says that you're wrong, then that's good cause for introspection.

As you say, the first step should be ending support for the insurgency. The fact that Israel managed to turn the support they gained from October 7 into this will go down as a major blunder. Israel doesn't control the world, Israel only control's Israel's actions. They need to figure out how to work within that framework instead of blaming the world.

They haven't decided this though. They decided to temporarily push this problem underground despite the fact that it will likely come back far stronger.

This is just the far most likely case at the moment. It's not at all important to my argument.

I don't know why India would agree to this. I just didn't understand why someone would think India would be a joke, considering its size, values, and military prowess.

India has enough of a target on its back. Occupying Palestine just makes them less safe. Israel is the country that has to live with these people and these people has to live with Israel. Why not start now?

I'm also not sure Israel can afford to rebuild in Gaza and pay for another power to serve as security. They'll have to do it themselves. They broke it. They fix it. Not our problem to figure out how.

if you just pick the right identity to enforce a brutal apartheid occupation then the oppressed people will just consent. Westerners have no humanity. they cant even conceive of a not doing slavery and genocide.

Do you have an example of how to "ethically" defeat an insurgency that is has such popular support and is so well funded? I of course can give several examples of insurgencies being defeated through what you would call "genocide," but I cant think of any examples that you would define as ethical that worked (and a lot that didn't).

And as we speak Israel is widening and even paving the Philadelphi and Netzarim corridors. Whatever they have announced, the actions of the current administration indicate they are planning on staying in these corridors in some capacity, to choke off the supply of weapons to Hamas.

It is against the rules of the thread to negatively characterize entire populations. Please be precise with our language. Thank you friends 😀

I don't know why ethically is in quotes as if it was a part of the argument I made in that post.

I completely left ethics aside in order to completely focus on results and strategies.

Or are you suggesting that the only successful way to fight one would be unethical?

its certainly against International Law. but we know that Western powers and their supporters dont give a **** about International Law unless they can pin something on Russia.

My understanding is that you are proposing that an ethical solution would combat or defeat Hamas without losing international support. Contrary to how Israel is conducting things atm, which is supposedly losing international support.

In this case, I would say yes, Israel can not, and will not defeat the insurgency with the biased, bad faith ethical constraints placed on it.

Even the current operation is just a stop gap, although far more effective than previous strategy of letting Hamas militarize Gaza using no string attached western aid.

In October 2023 Hamas launched over 8000 rockets at Israel. In November they launched about 1500. Fast forward a few months and Hamas is launching less than 10 a month now.

It is actually wild just how effective the current Israeli operation has been in the short term in destroying Hamas ability to fire rockets into Israel, and it is very depressing how the rest of the world just wants to go back to the status quo where Hamas can and will fire thousands a month at will.

If the rest of the world stopped supplying aid to the insurgency, the insurgency would be over; as it relies completely on outside aid to function. But you would call the genocide, so here we are.

I am suggesting that an effective solution would be better. The part about it also being more ethical was not mentioned.

As mentioned previously, this is a very effective short term strategy, which the amount of rockets being fired supports. What is being argued is that this is an awful strategy long term. As you have pointed out, Hamas's popularity is on the rise. Israel's standing in the world community is so bad that you claim the rest of the world is against Israel. This is despite Hamas conducting a horrendous terrorist act to kick off these recent events; clearly Israel blundered this.

I suppose we won't know what the next few years will actually bring, but I'm expecting intense violence in Gaza. We've seen these mistakes played out before in Iraq. We've also seen what worked in Iraq to stop the violence. Israel ignored the thing that worked, despite the urging of all of its allies, and instead opted for the mistakes which have already been proven to fail.

They traded a reduction in rocket strikes with minimal casualties (they would have eliminated the rockets in other manners too) at the expense of destroying their world standing, boosting international support for Hamas, and drastically boosting Hamas's local support and recruitment efforts. This will benefit Israel short term and be a major setback long term.

by The Horror k

https://apnews.com/article/red-sea-attack-sounion-eu-yemen-houthi-rebels-8cefa2970e5862ab5840199dbbae31df

AP News

Greek-flagged tanker is burning after Houthi attacks, but no sign of oil spill

Hopefully there wont be an oil spill. There is still multiple fires raging on board the ship from planted explosives going off. But just because the world may have dodged a bullet this time doesn't mean this isn't a sign of how suicidal our empathy has become, by our unconditional support of destructive bad faith actors in the name of compassion.

Not gonna argue that Yemen isn't a shithole:

https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/08/07/yemen-houthis-obstructing-aid-exacerbating-cholera

Human Rights Watch

Yemen: Houthis Obstructing Aid, Exacerbating Cholera

I'm not an isolationist. I'm all for complex economic relations with even closed markets, but I'm for pulling out of Middle East conflict, altogether.

Houthis targeted the ship so it would not spill oil. even the Western media admits that.

-Israel issued new evacuation orders for Deir Al-Balah in the central Gaza Strip late on Sunday, forcing more families to flee, saying its forces intended to act against militant group Hamas and others operating in the area.

A couple points from a twitter thread by an IDF soldier who did a tour in Gaza. It is completely consistent with everything known about Gaza the West turns a completely blind eye to, as it doesn't fit the narrative. As I have reiterated, if this is how the people of Gaza want to live, that is there prerogative I guess. But we dont need to be funding such a dysfunctional, nihilistic, destructive worldview. The aid/terror pipeline must be shut off.

3. The most popular item in Gazan homes: a map of Israel titled “Palestine “. No mention of Israel or any Israeli cities. It’s present in almost every home, every school and every public institution. The goal of erasing Israel is not hidden or subdued, it’s practically everywhere. The historical distortion of this map, which is taught from age 0 (mandatory borders of territories that were never designated for an Arab country at any point in time), is a subject for a different discussion, it only highlights the twisted perception of reality of the Gazans.

4. All the neighborhoods I was in, included Hamas combat ranges: weapons, tunneling, explosives, launching pads. Everything was inside residential homes, some prepared with wall openings meant to allow movement between houses and what not. Gaza civilians living in combat zones know this - they received countless warnings to evacuate. Long before IDF came in. IDF leaflets and announcements are still everywhere. Whoever decided to stay in the combat zones are either Hamas operatives or people who consciously decided to stay in areas that serve Hamas, whatever their reasons may be.

6. The circle that enabled Hamas activity is much larger than its 30 thousand combatants. Hamas ideology exists in almost every home, in photos, in propaganda. Hamas in Gaza is like Messi in Argentina.

Where does the Western media admit this?

Again, do you know how epistemologically compromised you have to be to be carrying water for a group that intentionally is blowing up ships carrying 150,000 gallons of crude oil?

--This was intentionally done after the crew had already abandoned the ship from an earlier attack by the Houthis. Pure psychopathic destructive behavior. And of course we get everyones favorite war cry while it is happening.

I take it you feel this behavior is haram, and you preferred it when she was a domestic slave in Gaza locked in a room forced to read the Koran all day?

evacuate to where? and how?

Would you say to the people of North-Korea that if they ''wanted'' to live like this it's their prerogative?

Point 4 is what ever.