Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
are the young men from the infamous drone strike video included since they were identified later?what about the unidentified people from drone strike videos?what about the people buried in streets or backyards?what about the babies who died lack of incubation and found decomposed?what about the people who starved to death?who couldnt get dialysis?who died in child birth?who are
we got some direct answers to these questions. lets just say that the assumptions by some people in this thread were wrong.
only the first 2 categories are included in the casualty numbers and that is only if their body parts are taken to a hospital or morgue.
Well I think they are only going to destroy lebanon then pack up and go home.
The repercussions there remain to be seen.
if they go into Lebanon, which is looking more and more likely, they wont leave unless the Liberation forces drive them out. many of their leaders, media, and politicians are openly talking about stealing the South and East and settling it.
Israel is surely blocking some amount of aid because ultimately, large portions of it end up in Hamas hands
So what's the reason for blocking tampons?
Since the Israeli onslaught on the Palestinian enclave began on 7 October, the total siege on Gaza has prevented hygiene and period products from entering the Strip.
why are you citing an article from january is the better question. kind of weird to talk about aid efforts from january when we are currently in september, almost october now.
we got some direct answers to these questions. lets just say that the assumptions by some people in this thread were wrong.
only the first 2 categories are included in the casualty numbers and that is only if their body parts are taken to a hospital or morgue.
Dr. Zaher al-Wahaidi: The estimates from the Government Media Office indicate that the number of martyrs is 50,000, as at least 10,000 are still under the rubble. This is the declared number, and there are unreported figures as well.
Dr. Zaher al-Wahaidi: The estimates from the Government Media Office indicate that the number of martyrs is 50,000, as at least 10,000 are still under the rubble. This is the declared number, and there are unreported figures as well.
the declared number is not over 50k. its like 42k. quick google search or just reading mainstream sources will tell you that. it is even mentioned in that article.
reread the article, they keep 2 lists.
regardless, this guy is explicit that none of these groups are on either list
what about the babies who died lack of incubation and found decomposed?
what about the people who starved to death?
who couldnt get dialysis?
who died in child birth?
or who have just disappeared?
it takes a lot of effort to debunk your blatant misinformation. just linking an article is not enough. I need to screenshot every single point otherwise you will deny it. regardless, now others can see the truth of how meticulous the Health Ministry is and how the reported number of ~42k is a massive undercount.
the declared number is not over 50k. its like 42k. quick google search or just reading mainstream sources will tell you that. it is even mentioned in that article.
Take this up with the person from the article? I'm not doubting 42k, and I'm not doubting that 10k is buried, I'm doubting the outrageous opinion piece in the Lancet claiming 186k, and your claims of (if I recall correctly, 500k):
It's a very loose estimate. Could be higher than 10k, probably not 140k higher though.
[QUOTE=Bluegrassplayer;58648894]To begin with the number suggested by the article, and which Victor is claiming is for the current total TODAY, is nearly twice 100k: 186k to be exact. What Victor is suggesting that the article says is that currently for every body that the Gaza Health Ministry claims, there are 4 bodies which haven't been discovered. That's not 1 death per bomb, it's 4.
Whereas the UN claims there's 10k or so uncovered bodies, he is saying there's 150,000.
reread the article, they keep 2 lists.
OK?
regardless, this guy is explicit that none of these groups are on either list
it takes a lot of effort to debunk your blatant misinformation. just linking an article is not enough. I need to screenshot every single point otherwise you will deny it. regardless, now others can see the truth of how meticulous the Health Ministry is and how the reported number of ~42k is a massive undercount.
Yep, looks like I was wrong on a few of those, although several of them do fall into the category of being counted as casualties. Sorry, I can't answer all of your sealioning questions on demand. My overall point still stands: approx 40k dead when we previously discussed it, approx 10k buried. Your source seems to second that opinion, which isn't surprising since he works for the same organization as the person from the last article I posted on the subject. It's almost as if these are numbers directly from the Gaza Ministry of Health:
Dr. Zaher al-Wahaidi: The estimates from the Government Media Office indicate that the number of martyrs is 50,000, as at least 10,000 are still under the rubble. This is the declared number, and there are unreported figures as well.
You were trying to suggest that there's a lot of bodies which the Ministry of Health knew about but could not count in their figures, and that is not the case.
I doubt that there's 450k dead from lack of dialysis, childbirth, or starvation. This isn't meant to discount these issues, it's meant to highlight that realistic and confirmed numbers are better than outright fiction. 200k is outright fiction at this point. 500k...
Thanks for sharing the article, it's good information. It clarifies my main points and also corrects some minor points we had to make assumptions about due to lack of information.
Israel Deliberately Blocked Humanitarian...
and then lied to congress about it.
The U.S. government’s two foremost authorities on humanitarian assistance concluded this spring that Israel had deliberately blocked deliveries of food and medicine into Gaza.
The U.S. Agency for International Development delivered its assessment to Secretary of State Antony Blinken and the State Department’s refugees bureau made its stance known to top diplomats in late April. Their conclusion was explosive because U.S. law requires the government to cut off weapons shipments to countries that prevent the delivery of U.S.-backed humanitarian aid.
[...] Days later, on May 10, Blinken delivered a carefully worded statement to Congress that said, “We do not currently assess that the Israeli government is prohibiting or otherwise restricting the transport or delivery of U.S. humanitarian assistance.”
Prior to his report, USAID had sent Blinken a detailed 17-page memo on Israel’s conduct. The memo described instances of Israeli interference with aid efforts, including killing aid workers, razing agricultural structures, bombing ambulances and hospitals, sitting on supply depots and routinely turning away trucks full of food and medicine.
[...] Separately, the head of the State Department’s Bureau of Population, Refugees and Migration had also determined that Israel was blocking humanitarian aid and that the Foreign Assistance Act should be triggered to freeze almost $830 million in taxpayer dollars earmarked for weapons and bombs to Israel, according to emails obtained by ProPublica.
The U.N. has declared a famine in parts of Gaza. The world’s leading independent panel of aid experts found that nearly half of the Palestinians in the enclave are struggling with hunger. Many go days without eating. Local authorities say dozens of children have starved to death — likely a significant undercount. Health care workers are battling a lack of immunizations compounded by a sanitation crisis. Last month, a little boy became Gaza’s first confirmed case of polio in 25 years.
The USAID officials wrote that because of Israel’s behavior, the U.S. should pause additional arms sales to the country. ProPublica obtained a copy of the agency’s April memo along with the list of evidence that the officials cited to back up their findings.
USAID, which is led by longtime diplomat Samantha Power, said the looming famine in Gaza was the result of Israel’s “arbitrary denial, restriction, and impediments of U.S. humanitarian assistance,” according to the memo.
[...] It is, USAID concluded, “one of the worst humanitarian catastrophes in the world.”
there of course will be zero consequences to doing this genocide and lying to congress about it
1) what is the law? the article doesn’t cite the law
2) it says blocking US-backed humanitarian aid. What does that mean? Did the agencies assess that they blocked US-backed humanitarian aid?
3) are the findings of these reports binding at all? what was in the report?
The article is a poorly written opinion piece, not news.
I am curious. Amongst those who consistently post here in favor or the Palestinians and against Israel:
1) Do you think Israel has the right to exist?
2) If not, what should happen to Israel?
3) If yes, then how would you create peace with those who do not believe Israel has the right to exist (eg, Hamas, Hezbollah)?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2...
Benjamin Netanyahu’s office has ruled out a ceasefire proposal between Israel and Hezbollah, saying “The news about a ceasefire – not true. This is an American-French proposal, to which the prime minister did not even respond.”
This could be a negotiating tactic but it feels like Israel may be trying to do a war to end all wars approach since it seems like there is no political downside for Netanyahu or real repercussions from allies.
I am curious. Amongst those who consistently post here in favor or the Palestinians and against Israel:
1) Do you think Israel has the right to exist?
2) If not, what should happen to Israel?
3) If yes, then how would you create peace with those who do not believe Israel has the right to exist (eg, Hamas, Hezbollah)?
1) Yes, as much as any other nation.
3) Stop providing a cause to rally around (repression of Palestinians) and some combination of military deterrence and economic/political incentive against war like the proposed Saudi deal. That obviously may not be possible with all parties but it’s pretty clear that the less Israel’s foes think they have to lose, the more they’re willing to escalate.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2...
This could be a negotiating tactic but it feels like Israel may be trying to do a war to end all wars approach since it seems like there is no political downside for Netanyahu or real repercussions from allies.
we saw this dog and pony show with Gaza ceasefire talks for a year now. its just psychological warfare and buying time. the media ofc is complicit with IDF intelligence officers like Barak Ravid masquerading as unbiased reporters to launder whatever transparent lie Israel wants to portray.
now, I do think it is possible they would be willing to ceasefire with Hezbollah so they could focus on Gaza. breaking the solidarity of the resistance is probably a legitimate goal of theirs. but Hezbollah has too much honor and will not make a separate peace, they have been clear on that.
I am curious. Amongst those who consistently post here in favor or the Palestinians and against Israel:
1) Do you think Israel has the right to exist?
2) If not, what should happen to Israel?
3) If yes, then how would you create peace with those who do not believe Israel has the right to exist (eg, Hamas, Hezbollah)?
1) Yes, despite being a terrible idea (though diminishingly so)
3) Capture those responsible for war crimes and take them to The Hague; make it clear that the atrocities and apartheid are over and make a full apology for those and the land grabs, with reparations, and stop settlers from taking land in the WB; see how things are after this.
1) Yes, as much as any other nation. 3) Stop providing a cause to rally around (repression of Palestinians) and some combination of military deterrence and economic/political incentive against war like the proposed Saudi deal. That obviously may not be possible with all parties but it’s pretty clear that the less Israel’s foes think they have to lose, the more they’re willing t
Are Hamas and Hizbollah, you know, Iranian financed parties, part of the not possible?
Because you know, what you’re proposing is what Israel tried to do for decades until/unless they get shot at. At some point you need to actually fight to restore deterrence. Letting Hizbollah and Hamas shoot without consequences clearly had not worked.
1) what is the law? the article doesn’t cite the law
2) it says blocking US-backed humanitarian aid. What does that mean? Did the agencies assess that they blocked US-backed humanitarian aid?
3) are the findings of these reports binding at all? what was in the report?
The article is a poorly written opinion piece, not news.
1) Yes, despite being a terrible idea (though diminishingly so)
3) Capture those responsible for war crimes and take them to The Hague; make it clear that the atrocities and apartheid are over and make a full apology for those and the land grabs, with reparations, and stop settlers from taking land in the WB; see how things are after this.
3 and 1 are contradictory. Israel exists as an expansionist, apartheid state by definition. paying reparations and ending apartheid and ending land theft would necessitate that it ceases to exist.
Are Hamas and Hizbollah, you know, Iranian financed parties, part of the not possible?
Because you know, what you’re proposing is what Israel tried to do for decades until/unless they get shot at. At some point you need to actually fight to restore deterrence. Letting Hizbollah and Hamas shoot without consequences clearly had not worked.
Hamas likely is since their reason for being is opposed to an Israeli state. Hezbollah less so since they’ve been relatively restrained since the beginning of this most recent mess. And Israel has absolutely not made a good faith effort to curb its own provocations. That’s a large part of the reason this situation arose.
I am curious. Amongst those who consistently post here in favor or the Palestinians and against Israel:
1) Do you think Israel has the right to exist?
2) If not, what should happen to Israel?
3) If yes, then how would you create peace with those who do not believe Israel has the right to exist (eg, Hamas, Hezbollah)?
1) Do you think Palestine has the right to exist?
2) Do you think Palestinians should have the right to vote on the government that controls them?
3) If yes, what happens to Israel?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2...
This could be a negotiating tactic but it feels like Israel may be trying to do a war to end all wars approach since it seems like there is no political downside for Netanyahu or real repercussions from allies.
ah remember good old WW1 "the war to end all wars"
we saw this dog and pony show with Gaza ceasefire talks for a year now. its just psychological warfare and buying time. the media ofc is complicit with IDF intelligence officers like Barak Ravid masquerading as unbiased reporters to launder whatever transparent lie Israel wants to portray.
Not sure about this part. Seems possible they’re focusing on Hezbollah, in part, to distract from the lack of end game in Gaza. Israelis like Netanyahu more when he’s bombing Lebanon than spinning his wheels in Gaza.
Not sure about this part. Seems possible they’re focusing on Hezbollah, in part, to distract from the lack of end game in Gaza. Israelis like Netanyahu more when he’s bombing Lebanon than spinning his wheels in Gaza.
getting the settlers back to the North seems like a big enough political win. and breaking the solidarity of the resistance isolating Hamas would be huge.
Israel Deliberately Blocked Humanitarian...
and then lied to congress about it.
there of course will be zero consequences to doing this genocide and lying to congress about it
more info here
