Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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Israel has already explained that they will never front-load two state.
You don't have an Oct 7th done to you, and reward it with a state. That is the worst possible decision if you play that out.
Two state is EARNED. It's earned with de-radicaliization and stability and peace. Something that was always on the table, and never accepted.
So earn it.
I think the paradigm of western aid and Arab propaganda is the bigger problem, and the real driver of the dysfunction. The Palestinian people and leadership have a very tribal, nihilistic, zero-sum worldview; but given the propaganda they are exposed to and the incentives they are provided, their behavior is more or less rationale. And I have no optimism anything will change in this direction unless there is a radical shift in the environment and incentive structure.
And Israel could behave better, especially in the West Bank. But I think Israel, especially the current administration, is cynical that better behavior would yield better results, and I am inclined to share this pessimism.
How Israeli spies penetrated Hizbollah
For the next two decades, Israel’s sophisticated signals intelligence Unit 8200, and its military intelligence directorate, called Aman, mined vast amounts of data to map out the fast-growing militia in Israel’s “northern arena”.
Not really important, but since Barak Ravid's history has been brought up it's kind of interesting.
A former high-ranking Lebanese politician in Beirut said the penetration of Hizbollah by Israeli or US intelligence was “the price of their support for Assad”.
“They had to reveal themselves in Syria,” he said, where the secretive group suddenly had to stay in touch and share information with the notoriously corrupt Syrian intelligence service, or with Russian intelligence services, who were regularly monitored by the Americans.
In the days after October 7, Israeli warplanes took off with instructions to bomb a location where Nasrallah had been located by Israel’s intelligence directorate Aman. The raid was called off after the White House demanded Netanyahu do so, according to one of the Israeli officials.
The inalienable right to self-determination isn't earned, and it's certainly not "granted" by warmongering savages like Bibi.
That is why it is so important to support Israel against IRI and its proxies, who are clearly violating Israel's inalienable right to self determination; by constantly attacking it with missiles, rockets and drones while calling for its destruction.
Bluegrass,
You must have missed the memo. According to Victor's 100% accurate intelligence, Unit 8200 was more or less destroyed by Hezbollah a few weeks ago during one of their successful rocket attacks on Israel. Which is one reason why Israel has been so unsuccessful in penetrating Hezbollah's communications network.
An old Al J take on why you won't get a two-state solution.
Why there can never be a two-state solution
For the past 50 years, a United Nations Security Council resolution has helped to sustain Israel’s occupation of Palestine, analysts say.
Ghada Karmi, a British-Palestinian author and lecturer at Exeter University’s Institute of Arab and Islamic studies, says the central issue is that Israelis “never intended” to comply with UNSC Resolution 242, adopted on November 22, 1967.
“The fact of total Israeli control of 100 percent of Palestine is precisely and fundamentally why you can’t have a two-state solution,” Karmi said.
That is why it is so important to support Israel against IRI and its proxies, who are clearly violating Israel's inalienable right to self determination; by constantly attacking it with missiles, rockets and drones while calling for its destruction.
And why it's so important to oppose Netanyahu and seek a political solution.
Bluegrass,
You must have missed the memo. According to Victor's 100% accurate intelligence, Unit 8200 was more or less destroyed by Hezbollah a few weeks ago during one of their successful rocket attacks on Israel. Which is one reason why Israel has been so unsuccessful in penetrating Hezbollah's communications network.
Oh Tankie Twitter... will they ever learn?
https://archive.is/7ZeKq#selection-755.0...
Some Hezbollah loyalists directed their anger at Iran, the group’s patron and arms supplier, which has not come to their aid after weeks of punishing airstrikes. “Iran sold us out,” I heard one man say in a Beirut café Saturday afternoon, a phrase that was widely repeated on social media among Hezbollah sympathizers. Other supporters of Hezbollah appeared to be lashing out at Syrian refugees, whom they suspect of providing targeting information to Israel. Videos circulated online, claiming to show Shiite men brutally beating Syrians with truncheons.
This entire thread is a great read, but this part especially captures Iran's situation:
A great outcome from this would be Iran's proxies no longer trusting Iran.
The inalienable right to self-determination isn't earned, and it's certainly not "granted" by warmongering savages like Bibi.
The inalienable right to self-determination? That is a brainless soundbite. Who determines the structure of this self determination for the Palestinians? Hamas, which is funded and supported by another country, and who stopped offering democratic elections since the day they took over? You really think Hamas has the best interests of the Palestinians at heart? Do you really think that, if given their own country, Hamas would suddenly change gears and funnel all that money into beachfront resorts instead of tunnels and bombs? LOL.
There will never be an independent Palestinian state if Hamas is charge of it. Until Hamas has been removed from power, and the Palestinians agree to PEACE with Israel (NOT a cease fire), Israel will not relent. No matter the cost. Because that is what Iran run Hamas has earned for the Palestinian people.
Every person in the world who supports Hamas is dooming the Palestinians to death and destruction. Good job. Sadly, such people are too busy impressing themselves by (mis)using words like ethno-aparthied-state and genocide to notice that they have no clue what the Palestinian people would actually want, if Hamas did not exist.
Bluegrass,
You must have missed the memo. According to Victor's 100% accurate intelligence, Unit 8200 was more or less destroyed by Hezbollah a few weeks ago during one of their successful rocket attacks on Israel. Which is one reason why Israel has been so unsuccessful in penetrating Hezbollah's communications network.
Never said anything of the sort. Pretty sure it's a lot bigger than the 22 people who were reportedly killed.
Not only that, it's clear the Americans, Canadians, and British are helping with the mass slaughter.
It was reported by mainstream Lebanese media. I posted the source twice. I suspect you read it and this is a typical troll.
Regardless, tankie Twitter is a lot more accurate than visegrad and Nafo Twitter.
But I don't think the people getting bombed by Western bombs are tankies. I just follow people in actual Lebanon and Gaza or from there. I understand that Western chauvinism precludes most people from believing these victims and requires validation from a stenographer before they can be humanized and believed, ie typically never.
Remember when we were assured that Israel is *not* an apartheid state and that Palestine wasn't an occupied Bantustan? Now, with no irony, they're quite seriously discussing whether Israel should deign to let Palestine exist.
Westerners are discussing it purely as an alternate reality. there already seems to be consensus in Israel itself and within the Western ruling elites. and with the Lebanon onslaught, it looks like they have extended it to all Shia in the area.
I think it's crazy that for years itt, the concept of a Jewish state was just viewed as some "ethno-state" that had no reason to exist. Like Jews shouldn't be able to self-determine. Now suddenly of course, people should self-determine. What a convenient change! I'm here for it.
Trolly the issue isn't if Palestinians should self-determine. It's how and WHERE. If you haven't noticed, "River to the Sea" kind of wants to self-determine...the same land the Israelis have. Kind of a problem...
Right, Israel doesn't have any moral authority to decree where people get to live.
Remember when you swore up and down this wasn't an occupation? That the Palestinians would all be allowed back to their homes in North Gaza and Israel of course isn't running an apartheid state? Now we're just casually discussing whether Gaza will exist at all, if Israel will deign to allow it. Textbook paternalism.
Time to rename this thread or start a new one for plucky little Israel's ventures into the Middle East?
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-eas...
"We in Lebanon are ready to implement 1701, and immediately upon the implementation of the ceasefire, Lebanon is ready to send the Lebanese army to the area south of the Litani River and to carry out its full duties," in coordination with UN peacemakers, Mikati said.
Hamas Lebanese leader killed in strike worked for UNRWA
As we reported earlier, Israel and Hamas have confirmed the killing of Fateh Sherif Abu el-Amin, the head of Hamas in Lebanon.
Hamas is based in Gaza - Israel has been fighting it there since the 7 October attacks. But it also has a presence in Lebanon. The IDF says Sherif was "responsible for coordinating Hamas' terror activities in Lebanon with Hezbollah operatives".
UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine refugees, has now confirmed to the BBC that Sherif was employed by UNRWA, but had been "put on administrative leave without pay in March".
It adds that he was the subject of "an investigation following allegations that UNRWA received about his political activities".
lmao
im shocked
Yeah, that would be huge.
Seems like a last attempt to prevent Israel from invading, doubt it works though. I don't even know if the Lebanese army is strong enough to actually enforce that.
^ I'm shocked!
"We in Lebanon are ready to implement 1701, and immediately upon the implementation of the ceasefire, Lebanon is ready to send the Lebanese army to the area south of the Litani River and to carry out its full duties," in coordination with UN peacemakers, Mikati said.
There needs to be a plan. Led by the Lebanese army but with more than enough support to restore it's country.
but we can't expect a partial restoration of peace. israel (and the usa) have to behave as well.The UN/ needs to be serious and taken seriosuly by us lot as well. It wont stick otherwise except by endless extreme force with all it's risks to israel as well.
Right, Israel doesn't have any moral authority to decree where people get to live.
Remember when you swore up and down this wasn't an occupation? That the Palestinians would all be allowed back to their homes in North Gaza and Israel of course isn't running an apartheid state? Now we're just casually discussing whether Gaza will exist at all, if Israel will deign to allow it. Textbook paternalism.
Trolly the war in Gaza is not over. Sinwar is still alive. Some 100 hostages are still in question. We're not even in the phase to discuss what's next. And that's because an entire framework has to be figured out within the region as to who is going to do what.
But RIGHT NOW, it's 100 hostages and Sinwar, mid-war. Let's see where this goes after the war (the war Hamas started btw). At present, if you believe Gaza has the means to fend for itself (which includes securing food and medical deliveries btw), we do not have the same understanding of how the world actually works.
^ I'm shocked!
There needs to be a plan. Led by the Lebanese army but with more than enough support to restore it's country.
but we can't expect a partial restoration of peace. israel (and the usa) have to behave as well.The UN/ needs to be serious and taken seriosuly by us lot as well. It wont stick otherwise except by endless extreme force with all it's risks to israel as well.
LOL. That is actually funny. The UN has done nothing but assist groups like Hezbollah and Hamas consolidate power, become states within states, and threaten and attack Israel. And there is nothing to suggest anything would go differently moving forward if it was left to them. Whatever the future for Lebanon is, the UN is not serious (at least not in any good way) and should not be trusted in any capacity.
Also, all the commentators that deign to know such things, indicate the Lebanese Army has no real power and despite currently having no leadership, Hezbollah (or some other IRI/Syrian aligned proxy) would probably take back control of the country if Israel stopped now and things were left to the UN.
I know you guys all hate Israel, but at some point you have to give them credit for having very good intelligence as far as Hezbollah's personnel, infrastructure and capabilities; so if they feel they need to go in to finish the job, we should probably accept this is a correct assessment.
At this point the paramount objective should be destroying Hezbollah's terror infrastructure near the border, especially the 50,000 (or whatever) bombs/missiles left still pointed at Israel. And again, Israel should be given the benefit of the doubt they know where they are and have the capabilities to get to them.
CNN live feed
US officials have confirmed that Israeli forces conducted special operations raids in Lebanese territory near the Israel-Lebanon border Monday morning.
One official described those raids to CNN as “very precise, very targeted, very small raids” – of the kind where “you go in, you go out” to specifically target Hezbollah’s capabilities.
US officials are currently not describing these Israeli raids as a ground incursion, even as they continue to carefully brace for the possibility of a limited ground operation that could come in the coming days.
Separately, Secretary of State Antony Blinken denounced slain Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah as “a brutal terrorist” as he once again called for diplomacy, despite the Israeli government’s continued rejection of US pleas for a diplomatic path forward in either Lebanon or Gaza.
“Lebanon, the region, the world are safer without” Nasrallah, Blinken said in remarks at the Global Coalition to Defeat ISIS ministerial.
Blinken again stressed the need for ceasefires on the blue line and in Gaza, saying that “diplomacy remains the best and only path to achieving greater stability in the Middle East.” He said the US is committed to “urgently driving these efforts forward.”
Remember when we were assured that Israel is *not* an apartheid state and that Palestine wasn't an occupied Bantustan? Now, with no irony, they're quite seriously discussing whether Israel should deign to let Palestine exist.
You do realize that the people Israel opposes are the ones who never thought it should exist, and still don't. You have to know that, right? If so, the solution is simple. Those who want to destroy Israel need to stop wanting that, and then Israel will stop wanting to destroy them. Quite simple, really.
