2024 ELECTION THREAD
The next presidential race will be here soon! Please see current Bovada odds. Thoughts?
ie just as a lover of history and nothing else, it saddened me that we have dismantled so many confederate statues - tearing them down doesn't change what happened in the slightest and robert e lee of all people is perhaps the most sympathetic confederate that ever lived
we're talking the best general america ever had, someone who faithfully served the united states for years, initially rejected and rebuked the confederacy, and only reluctantly joined when his state (which back then was more impo
Regardless of what anyone thinks about what you wrote above, what you wrote below is absurd and counterfactual.
at the end of the day it wasn't about white surpremacy, it was about honoring robert e lee's statue
Unite the Right was an event in search of a cause and had very little to do with Robert E. Lee specifically. At both the beginning and the end of the day, it was very much a hate event organized by white supremacists.
Regardless of what anyone thinks about what you wrote above, what you wrote below is absurd and counterfactual.
Unite the Right was an event in search of a cause and had very little to do with Robert E. Lee specifically. At both the beginning and the end of the day, it was very much a hate event organized by white supremacists.
it wasn't a random white supremacist rally
it was a protest against the removal of the statue so i can definitely envision a world in which people unaffiliated with the unite the right movement would have joined in on the protest
much like how a lot of people who hate the idea of "government handouts" still went ahead and cashed those covid checks
Fair enough but black people have an entirely different perspective on those statutes than you likely do. How would you feel about people celebrating figures who killed Americans for the right to keep your ancestors enslaved?
not a single person on earth does not have ancestry that was persecuted or killed by people who have statues or are revered today
even this guy, considered by many as the worst person to ever live, has multiple statues (some are being removed though)
not a single person on earth does not have ancestry that was persecuted or killed by people who have statues or are revered today
even this guy, considered by many as the worst person to ever live, has multiple statues (some are being removed though)
whataboutism in concrete form.
it wasn't a random white supremacist rally
it was a protest against the removal of the statue so i can definitely envision a world in which people unaffiliated with the unite the right movement would have joined in on the protest
much like how a lot of people who hate the idea of "government handouts" still went ahead and cashed those covid checks
I have said this a million times. Even if you somehow ended up at that rally without knowing that it was organized by white supremacists, that fact would have been immediately obvious after you arrived. At that point, you have a choice. You either leave or you choose to participate in a rally organized by white supremacists. If you opt for door number 2, you are what you are.
I also am mystified by the overall worldview you are espousing. If neo-Nazis organized a free speech event (which is much further afield from core neo-Nazi beliefs than preservation of Confederate monuments is to white supremacist beliefs), I obviously wouldn't attend regardless of whether I agreed with their interpretation of the First Amendment. And that's because I don't want to support the organizers. I might defend their free speech rights if I worked for the ACLU or something, but I damn sure wouldn't go to a rally and hold up signs with them.
Unite the Right was an event in search of a cause and had very little to do with Robert E. Lee specifically. At both the beginning and the end of the day, it was very much a hate event organized by white supremacists.
Yeah, even before the event and the videos of white supremacist chants and the murder by a neo nazi there were articles about how this was going to be an extremist white power rally.
lol, they are still crying about confederate ****? morans
To be fair they’re not really confederate. That were put up to keep non whites in their place and justify Jim Crowe, segregation and opposition to civil rights. That they were supposed to preserve the history of the civil war would have been news to the people who erected them.
I have said this a million times. Even if you somehow ended up at that rally without knowing that it was organized by white supremacists, that fact would have been immediately obvious after you arrived. At that point, you have a choice. You either leave or you choose to participate in a rally organized by white supremacists. If you opt for door number 2, you are what you are.
I also am mystified by the overall worldview you are espousing. If neo-Nazis organized a free speech event (which is
i think this is fair, never in a million years would i have been caught dead at that protest
you have effectively changed my mind with reason
not really, it holds true that everyone's peoples at some point has been persecuted and killed by others who today are revered as great people and it truly is a slippery slope where eventually we can no longer preserve or discuss any history
like i said, are we really going to dynamite 3/4 of mt rushmore next?
are you going to send every country we did terrible things to reparations?
at some point it's better to acknowledge the history of what happened instead of trying to pretend like it never existed
you can put up another statue next to robert e lee, or put up a new plague that goes into greater detail about the bad things he was associated with - but it's dumb to tear it down
like how some colleges and universities today put in their course syllabis and also start all live events with an acknowledgment that they are living on stolen native lands
Fair enough but black people have an entirely different perspective on those statutes than you likely do. How would you feel about people celebrating figures who killed Americans for the right to keep your ancestors enslaved?
Japanese-americans don't ask for the removal of all memories of FDR even if he PERSONALLY (and illegally) enslaved hundreds of thousands of their ancestors.
Italian heirs of the people who fought fascism don't ask to demolish fascist architecture.
I have said this a million times. Even if you somehow ended up at that rally without knowing that it was organized by white supremacists, that fact would have been immediately obvious after you arrived. At that point, you have a choice. You either leave or you choose to participate in a rally organized by white supremacists. If you opt for door number 2, you are what you are.
I also am mystified by the overall worldview you are espousing. If neo-Nazis organized a free speech event (which is
So would you apply the same logic to a BLM rally/protest were folks start burning things are vandalizing things ?
even this guy, considered by many as the worst person to ever live, has multiple statues
If you are going to rank the "worst" persons you shouldn't really just look at the amount of harm they did. Rather you should take that result, divide it by their degree of mental illness, and multiply by the chances that they knew what they were saying and doing was wrong. Using that criteria, tyrants and Southern generals rank high but I can't think of anyone who outranks those seven CEOs of the major cigarette companies who all stood up in that congressional hearing and claimed that their product was safe.
As to statues and monuments of prominent people who lived at a time where free black people were making it obvious that their race did not deserve to be enslaved (with the support of many eminent whites), I think some should be destroyed, some should be moved to museums, and in a few cases some should remain. But when they do remain or go to museums there should be plaques prominently displayed with them, making it clear that those depicted were evil and that there were plenty of others who did as much or more good without enslaving for the purpose of making money.
I have a thought experiment for people.
Imagine if candidate Kamala Harris introduced a 100k watch with which 147 will be produced. Would anyone, including Democratic party loyalists, let this go without criticism?
Why is a candidate for president releasing a watch that could net him millions of dollars personally?
Is there not a danger that someone could buy these watches, even foreign entities, and Trump would conside
There’s also this guy having so much contempt or so little regard for his own supporters that he has, repeatedly, used the grieving widow or a guy killed at his assassination attempt as a punchline for a stupid joke about money
But, you know, Kamabla laughs weird and happened to turn black
Remove politics from this and just look at the man: Donald trump is human garbage and a complete piece of **** absent a single redeemable trait who is incapable of looking at his fellow man as anything more than a means to his own end
The idea that this guy is your champion and is at his core a good guy who wants what’s best for America is the most laughable con of them all
If you are going to rank the "worst" persons you shouldn't really just look at the amount of harm they did. Rather you should take that result, divide it by their degree of mental illness, and multiply by the chances that they knew what they were saying and doing was wrong. Using that criteria, tyrants and Southern generals rank high but I can't think of anyone who outranks those seven CEOs of the major cigarette companies who all stood up in that congressional hearing and claimed that their pro
I easily can using your value scale, Powell when he made the casus belli for Iraq
Japanese-americans don't ask for the removal of all memories of FDR even if he PERSONALLY (and illegally) enslaved hundreds of thousands of their ancestors.
Nobody put up statues of FDR because Japanese Americans started asking for equal rights and condemnation of internment. If any were of course they should be taken down as false/perverted history.
If you are going to rank the "worst" persons you shouldn't really just look at the amount of harm they did. Rather you should take that result, divide it by their degree of mental illness, and multiply by the chances that they knew what they were saying and doing was wrong. Using that criteria, tyrants and Southern generals rank high but I can't think of anyone who outranks those seven CEOs of the major cigarette companies who all stood up in that congressional hearing and claimed that their pro
i think this is fair but i also disagree with your implied notion that "black people were making it obvious their race did not deserve to be enslaved"
as in not that they hadn't made the case, but rather that the case was never necessary
that was as self evident in washington's time as it was in lee's time
much the same way that the millions of europeans enslaved by byzantines, arabs, vikings, & ottomans/berbers was not due to the color of their skin nor their value as humans but rather the logistics of capturing slaves
the only reason why the majority of slaves in america were black (there were white slaves as well but the supply was cut off after independence because they were purchased from england) was simply that sub saharan africa was the last untapped resource for them
coastal europe had long since been abandoned or fortified (entire stretches of coastal europe were uninhabited for generations due to slave raids) so there either weren't any targets available or they were too well defended - slavic europe, (slave is derived from the word slav) by that point in time had transformed from a series of tribal (and sometimes semi-nomadic) settlements which were easily raided into a proper political entity with it's own military for defense against slave raids, etc
what was left was sub saharan africa, which was one of the few places where decentralized tribalism allowed for relatively easy gathering of mass quantities of slaves - and mind you that they were captured and sold to europeans by other groups of sub saharan africans
the idea that slavery was tied distinctly to the color of ones skin is not tied to reality
Your continued confusion when people show you who they are never ceases to amaze me.
In many cases, I am expressing exasperation that any person holds a particular belief, not surprise that a specific poster on 2+2 holds that belief.
Also, it's mostly a rhetorical figure of speech.
watch out roc, for him that may as well mean you agree with him that i'm worse than hitler
some users have dogshit reading comprehension
For me, it's not even a little surprising when the usual suspects engage in apologia for a white supremacist rally that is very loosely disguised as a Neo-Confederate pride festival. My reaction is more like "Yeah, that tracks."
You may want to re-read Roc's previous post, my dude.
Japanese-americans don't ask for the removal of all memories of FDR even if he PERSONALLY (and illegally) enslaved hundreds of thousands of their ancestors.
Italian heirs of the people who fought fascism don't ask to demolish fascist architecture.
Japanese people are a much smaller portion of the population. Also they were all paid reparations which black people weren’t. I don’t think the situation is analogous. Not sure what you mean by enslaved either, sounds like you are trying really hard to make it fit the analogy. They weren’t work camps.
I’m on two minds on this issue though. On the one hand, I really don’t care about removing confederate statues because they are all traitors to the US. The confederacy is a disgusting blight on US history, far more in my opinion than the institution of slavery itself. The institution of slavery was always covertly seen as an evil by the more politically influential founding fathers, despite many of their hypocritical practice of it. The confederacy on the other hand was not only traitorous, it was traitorous specifically because it wanted to keep its slaves.
On the other hand, I think cringe lefties really would want to get rid of statues to Jefferson and Washington, and eventually they would probably try to cancel Lincoln too because he once proposed a repatriation of Black people back to Africa. That I am entirely opposed to.
As far as the rally itself though, even if some people can in good faith disagree about taking the statues down, that just wasn’t what Charlottesville was about. It’s like saying just because some non-racist people don’t support BLM that every rally against BLM is plausibly non-racist. It’s a logical fallacy.
