Israel/Palestine thread

by chezlaw k

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp8x5570514o

BBC News

Saudi crown prince says Israel committing 'genocide' in Gaza

Sounds like he said all the right things to keep his population from getting upset. "Said" being the key word of course.

Quite possibly but it's still important that he had to say it.

The timing is too suspect to believe it's about the Saudi population.

They are positioning to ask more from Trump to reverse course.

Or some quid pro quo with Iran.

First off, we dont know what is in MBS's heart. For all we know he believes in Jihad, and martyrdom, and 72 virgins awaiting you in eternal paradise and all the rest. Regardless, I suspect you are correct and he is balancing his interests with the antisemitic Muslim world (including but not limited to Iran) and the liberal West.

Obviously when it comes to the west, all of our leaders have been bought and paid for, so as long as he keeps the oil flowing he can say whatever he wants. But for the Muslim world, a certain level of antisemitic speech is expected.

Lets keep in mind this person leads an authoritarian regime that confers few civil liberties and murders and imprisons anyone who opposes him, so there are no actual first principles at play. It is just some combination of tribalism and realpolitik.

That post could easily have been used to deacribe Haniyeh, and pretty much was.

The most important aspect of this to me is that despite assurances that Israel could do whatever it wants and continue normalization after, this seems to be a good indicator that is not the case.

Barak Ravid had a quote recently suggesting that Israel is closer to settlements in Gaza than they are to releasing the hostages. Israel is working against its self interest and has been for some time.

Do you seriously think he believes there will be "settlements" in Gaza? Do you believe there will be? Or is it possible he is he just engaging in hyperbole to criticize the actions of the current regime?

It is probably true the current regime has not prioritized hostage release. But it is also probably true Hamas has given them nothing to work with as far as negotiating goes. Hamas refuses to acknowledge it is even losing the war, and has shown an appalling indifference to the lives and well-being of the people they supposedly represent; so it is a weird spot where Israel cant negotiate because there is no willing partner to negotiate with.

The citizens of Gaza are starting to turn on Hamas. I'm shocked this didn't happen sooner. This petty bickering with Israel has destroyed so may lives in Gaza. People there are actually rooting for Israel to bomb Hamas soldiers.

Israel is about to significantly increase it's population. Jews are being hunted all across Europe and not just Amsterdam. It's sickening to think this is still the way it is in Europe. If I were a Jew and living in Europe I would seriously consider relocating to Israel ASAP!

They started this version of the violence which is resulting in complete devastation for the Gazans.

lol no

Europe is finding out they made a huge mistake.

Are there Jihadi leagues?

I wouldn't have done it but I get it.

This was a coordinated attack by Islamic Jihadists. These plans were in place well before the Israelis made these chants.

No. No. Possible but unlikely.

He's saying just how much Israel's current actions align with Bibi's rhetoric. If you think it's ridiculous when others say Israel is settling Gaza, it's slightly more ridiculous when anyone says Israel has rescuing hostages as a priority.

For a long time Bibi and Sinwar were engaged in some performance where they both made sure the conflict continued.

I don't know if Ravid is commenting on this though. It is a comment on the state of the conflict at this moment.

I suspect this isn't real. Where there is no Hamas others are filling in the vacuum, but I dont think anyone is openly turning on Hamas. The costs are just too high. If Hamas keeps power in Gaza (which is still very much in the cards because the West and Islamic world are still enabling them) they will be extremely brutal against anyone they feel turned on them, and everyone knows this; so even if the people wanted to turn no one really will unless there is the perception it is 100% guaranteed Hamas isn't retaining power.

When you say stuff like “the two state solution is off the table” and “we will only agree to a ceasefire after Hamas is eradicated” (lol) then you really aren’t much of a negotiating partner either.

Fact is neither side wants the war to end for their own reasons, and we’ll see whose gamble pays off in the end.

I dont think many European Jews will ultimately leave, and those that do are probably more likely to go to the US. I suspect more Jews are leaving Israel for Europe than vice versa. As bad as the occasional Muslim gang roaming the streets harassing you is; it is still more tolerable than Hezbollah rockets fired at your city daily.

The vast majority of European Jews are going to stay where they are, and just be less conspicuous about their identity and more careful where they go and what they say.

Sinwar is gone and nothing has changed. I think the whole narrative where Sinwar was being framed as the bad guy and everyone else (especially Haniyeh) as the good guy was completely contrived and being used to put leverage on Netanyahu.

In reality, I think Hamas from top to bottom has been committed to the war effort and refusing to compromise from their maximalist demands since October 7th. And first Haniyeh, and then Sinwar, dying hasn't really changed anything as far as commitment to Holy Jihad goes.

There will be no negotiations with Hamas. Israel will either capitulate to their demands or the war will continue. Hamas are religious zealots. From top to bottom they are completely indifferent to the earthly well-being of the Palestinian people. They are perfectly satisfied if the people live as Muslims and die as martyrs in accordance with their supernatural beliefs.

Maximalist demands like they get you know, basic human rights. ofc, liberal Western values do not extend human rights to those deemed inferior. rather they are used as slaves and test subjects for weaponry.

anyway, the only way this doesnt end with settlements in Gaza and Lebanon is if the Resistance is able to win militarily.

Well, good luck for your morale; as Israel isn't interested in settlements in Gaza or Lebanon. So at some point they will leave, and you can declare victory, regardless of reality.

I have zero confidence the resistance will do anything but make the worse choices possible for the Palestinian people and accomplish nothing productive with violence. But unlike you I accept reality, so I will not give credit to the resistance if/when Israel leaves of their own volition.

Everyone else, including Haniyeh, was not framed as good guys. Haniyeh was framed exactly as how you framed Salman: someone who may or may not believe in the things he claims to support, and who gives lip service to antisemitism when needed to make sure he can spend his millions. Do you think we should stop dealing with Saudi Arabia? It's extremely similar.

As you said (and as most predicted) in areas where Hamas is no longer around other groups are filling the gap. Israel will eventually have to deal with them. It's better to deal with the people paying lipservice to destroying Israel so they can live on their millions than the people who actually desire to kill Israel because they've lot their homes, families, and communities. Israel is actively killing the former and creating more of the latter.

Right now Israel is justifying their actions by claiming that they are targeting extremists, but their actions are creating more extremists. It's the same thing Russia was doing in Ukraine since 2014.