Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
[QUOTE=Crossnerd]
I’m just recovering from the mental gymnastics it took to get really mad at criticizing the Israeli government only to follow that up by directly blaming Jews for the rise in antisemitism.
I think Mets deeply believes in a Jewish homeland and sees this current round of hostilities as Israel facing an existential threat, on a level maybe comparable to the Yom Kippur war.
I'm speculating here but maybe he views anti Israel sentiments by some Jews as akin to a betrayal. I'm not saying that's right, but Jews who feel an affinity for Israel are going to be affected by this more than non Jews, I reckon, and by that I mean regarding how other Jews feel on the issue, not the actual conflict itself.
The betrayal sentiment is deeply problematic for a variety of reasons. If you’re a Jew blaming other Jews for the rise in antisemitism, you need to go take several deep breath and a long think about how you got to that point because it’s most definitely NOT ok on any level.
antisemitism is on the rise people.
You are right. But at the same time the Trolly's of the world have been arguing since 9/11 it is completely unacceptable to be prejudiced against Muslims for the actions of Islamist govts and non govt terrorist organizations. And I have never heard progressives argue that the IRI should moderate for the safety and well-being of Muslims worldwide. So there is a giant double s
I'm not saying any country should moderate their actions (although they should). I'm saying if your country is mopping the floor another country, ethnicity, whatever and then you go travel somewhere full of those supporters don't go crying to mom when **** goes south. Sure you may have nothing to do with your government's decisions but you're denying reality or incredibly naive to think there was heightened risk.
CV is right that those prejudices against your kind already existed and the war gave them some justification in their minds to act on it but you should be aware of that before getting off the plane. Just the way the world works and everyone knows it.
The betrayal sentiment is deeply problematic for a variety of reasons. If you’re a Jew blaming other Jews for the rise in antisemitism, you need to go take several deep breath and a long think about how you got to that point because it’s most definitely NOT ok on any level.
Dumbest response. Comes as no surprise seeing it from a green.
Here you are telling people what is ‘ok or not ok’ to say without engaging their ideas.
The “Jewish culture patterns cause antisemitism” argument is by no means new and is awfully hard for your side to refute with any substance, as long as the proper caveats are in place:
- some of the greatest, most noble warriors against true historical injustice have been Jewish
- some of the greatest warriors against current injustice are Jewish and very bizarrely have to fend off accusations of ‘antisemitism’ when criticizing the present actions of Israel.
- most Jews (by a lot) are good people
- Jews are pound for pound the smartest group of people (by a lot)
- there is a subset of people who, under the guise of Judaism, exploit non Jewish people and societies
- this is neither a ‘trope’ nor a ‘canard’
- it is the most logical basis for such consistent antisemitism as seen across so many societies for so many years (read the grievances, they’re well documented)
- your only response to this will be to say ‘antisemitic’, which isn’t an argument.
- discussions like this are why some people resent free speech and call it ‘dangerous’ or on your case, “… not OK”.
It is perfectly OK, because it’s all observably true.
No. It's a "back against the wall nation". Not that this is not potentially exaggerated propaganda.
Iran and Hamas have stated quite clearly that their goal is the destruction of Israel. Hezbollah has not signed an actual peace treaty, so they are a threat to re-enter the fight at any time. Do not expect a country that is in an existential fight for existence to care about whether they are fighting "fair".
If they have not already made it abundantly clear, they do not care what you think. They do not care what anyone thinks. Nor is there any reason for them to.
Peace or destruction. Choose.
Dumbest response. Comes as no surprise seeing it from a green. Here you are telling people what is ‘ok or not ok’ to say without engaging their ideas. The “Jewish culture patterns cause antisemitism” argument is by no means new and is awfully hard for your side to refute with any substance, as long as the proper caveats are in place:- some of the greates
I have no idea what point you’re making here with all the non-sequiturs etc, but in general telling Jews they’re responsible for the rise in antisemitism is bigotry. Demanding all Jews be loyal to Israel is also bigotry.
there is a subset of people who, under the guise of Judaism, exploit non Jewish people and societies
- this is neither a ‘trope’ nor a ‘canard’
- it is the most logical basis for such consistent antisemitism as seen across so many societies for so many years (read the grievances, they’re well documented)
This bit, however, *is* actually antisemitic.
5thStreet, are you claiming that there’s a subset of Jews who exploit non-Jewish societies and that’s why there is antisemitism and that this is demonstrable?
It’s definitely the reasoning many people employ when taking issue with certain well established an unarguable cultural practices associated with certain types of Judaism.
You can say it’s ’antisemitism’ but people are stating to notice your (people of your belief structure) inability to articulate much of a case as to why it’s incorrect… and that’s shy you’re losing so much ground in public opinion.
5thStreet, are you claiming that there’s a subset of Jews who exploit non-Jewish societies and that’s why there is antisemitism and that this is demonstrable?
Yes.
It is one unarguable historical reason for antisemitism.
If you want to open the door to an actual discussion of that, great, but you can’t then greentext your way out of it with a ban, modifying posts or deleting them when the facts are laid out
I have no idea what point you’re making here with all the non-sequiturs etc, but in general telling Jews they’re responsible for the rise in antisemitism is bigotry. Demanding all Jews be loyal to Israel is also bigotry.
The point isn’t hard to decipher.
Saying ‘antisemitism’ isn’t a counter-argument to people who have issue with things the state of Israel and/or Jews of certain ideological alliance are doing in their society.
Anyone who lends their support to groups who want to “globalize the Intifada” and “river to the sea” the inhabitants of Israel is antisemitic or at the very least apathetic towards antisemitism. This applies to both Jews and non Jews.
Anyone who lends their support to groups who want to “globalize the Intifada” and “river to the sea” the inhabitants of Israel is antisemitic or at the very least apathetic towards antisemitism. This applies to both Jews and non Jews.
Agree 100%.
Now, ask why they believe as they do and what their evidence is.
No. It's a "back against the wall nation". Not that this is not potentially exaggerated propaganda.Iran and Hamas have stated quite clearly that their goal is the destruction of Israel. Hezbollah has not signed an actual peace treaty, so they are a threat to re-enter the fight at any time. Do not expect a country that is in an existential fight for existence to care about wheth
lol at the posts on this page that get permas
You can do whatever you want but in the current culture Jews criticizing Israel causes global antisemitism.
Maybe not causes but normalizes. Or allows it to happen
So I personally believe Jews are doing a disservice by doing it
I'm allowed to believe that
I 100% agree. How many times have we heard "This guy is Jewish and he say's Israel is bad"? The Jews who are against Israel right now are traders. They have prolonged this war. They have been used as propaganda pieces by Hamas and it's supporters. The only reason you have liberal Jews calling out Israel is because they wrongly think they have to show caring for the weak. This is there way of giving back to those who helped them after the Holocaust. This is why they tend to vote Democrat. They have blood on their hands because they have indirectly helped to extend the war. If people just supported Israel from the beginning this war would have been over a year ago. It's very similar to how the anti war idiots help to keep the Vietnam War going. The enemy knew the nation was divided and they could hold out for a better post war deal.
Mongidig will return to us in a month for his last post.
yikes
Natediggity will return to us in a week after he’s worked out why that joke is not acceptable.
Nobody has said any of those things Mets. You’re arguing against imaginary monsters. I think Israel should exist and Israel should also be good.
But I’ve already seen enough from you with the Jew-blaming for the rise is antisemitism. Incredible stuff. I’ll let my family know they should really blame themselves if they are attacked.
Israel cannot exist while being "good" under fantasy parameters that only work while having expensive tea among middle aged upper middle class women who like to have a talk.
Israel needs to exterminate a lot of people and subjugate many others to survive. you are either Israel should cease to exist or it's ok to use unlimited violence against the multitudes which want Israeli to cease to exist and are willing to wage violence to achieve that.
the world is a bloody mess and unless you are an upper middle class woman in a rich society, you either assassinate a lot of your enemies or you get assassinated by them and your kids get as well.
that's the real world CN. you kill or get killed. and for 1950 years Jews have been killed en masse every time someone was upset and wanted to find an excuse for his problems.
and we recently decided IT'S ENOUGH and NEVER AGAIN AT ANY COST.
are you with us to defend Jews with any mean necessary , no ifs, no buts, and a a will to destroy everyone who doesn't like them, with no remorse, or against us?
