Israel/Palestine thread
Think this merits its own thread...
Discuss my fellow 2+2ers..
AM YISRAEL CHAI.
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32084 Replies
Reports are Trump and his cabinet are watching the uncensored 10/7 footage. Pretty much everyone who has ever seen it has stated they were complexly shocked by the utter depravity and inhumanity exhibited by Hamas and their sycophants.
In other news, polling indicates Palestinians overwhelmingly support the actions of Hamas and their sycophants on 10/7, and view the atrocities as a source of national pride.
As bad as Israel helping Nazi war criminals such as Walter Rauff? Who pioneered mobile gas chambers via large trucks? Or not as bad as Ireland staying neutral? Or is it different when Israel helps Nazi war criminals a mere five years after The Holocaust, because reasons and excuses?
Like I said to Dun, clean up your own house first before whinging about others yeah? Hottest place in hell and so on indeed..
Israel did not help Rauff. We used him to get intel against Syria and then tried to prosecute him when he was no longer valubale for us. And it is fair game to use anyone, including Nazi's, when important interests require it.
Also, I have claimed here many many times that Israel was and is many times in the wrong. It takes nothing from me to understand that my country is also far from perfect. I also acknowledge that in the greater skim of things, we usually hold the moral high ground in most conflicts we were a part of.
I can hold Israel and Ireland accountable at the same time. I don’t agree with the "clean your own house" argument.
This is not an attack on you, this is me merely arguing that Ireland stance on the war was immoral and that it is hard for us to face criticism from the Ireland government, in this context.
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Stop lying. You absolutely did help SS Nazi butcher Walter Rauff, no two ways about it mate.
A CIA report, dated 24 March 1950, states that Israeli agent Edmond (Ted) Cross of the Israeli Service was working to employ former Nazis for observation and penetration in the Arab countries. In 1950 Rauff was safe in South America living in Quito. One of the plans included sending Rauff to Egypt. One report indicated that Rauff did not reach Egypt, but a 1953 memo stated that an operative, most likely Rauff, was in the country at that time. An earlier CIA report, from February 1950, stated that Cross helped Rauff obtain the necessary papers for settling in South America (entering by Argentina) and added: "It is not improbable that Subject's presence in Syria was in connection with a mission for the Israel[i] service"
So yeah. You helped him and got him set up nice and cushy in South America, regardless of your falser claims otherwise.
We used him to get intel against Syria and then tried to prosecute him when he was no longer valubale for us. And it is fair game to use anyone, including Nazi's, when important interests require it.
Yeah like I said, different when your country does unethical $hit because reasons, excuses and moar reasons, I get you mate. 😀
Oh and I'm aware of the context, even if I think it's disgusting. But if your country gets into bed with Nazi war criminals who in Rauff's case were responsible for the murders of 100,000 Jews, then you do not get to wag your finger at my country and condemn it for being officially neutral and ignoring that we helped the Allies, after you did indeed help monsters. Unbelievable chutzpah by you.
Also, I have claimed here many many times that Israel was and is many times in the wrong. It takes nothing from me to understand that my country is also far from perfect. I also acknowledge that in the greater skim of things, we usually hold the moral high ground in most conflicts we were a part of.
I can hold Israel and Ireland accountable at the same time. I don’t agree with the "clean your own house" argument.
I don't care whether you agree or not, clean up your gaff before whinging about others, end of story. And this is coming from someone who is pro Israel.
This is not an attack on you, this is me merely arguing that Ireland stance on the war was immoral and that it is hard for us to face criticism from the Ireland government, in this context.
You're attacking my country for being neutral while yet again secretly effing helping the allies as I've told you umpteen times, while excusing your own country for helping actual Nazi war criminals, you have some bleedin neck mate. 😆
You do not have the moral high ground here and if you think you do, you're f-n deluded.
Oh and screw the Irish government's criticism of Israel. Ireland is supposed to be neutral, meaning we've no business wagging our fingers at a country whose surrounded by enemies who hate them and wish to wipe them off the map. Ireland wasn't subjected to a horrific sickening pogrom on Oct 07 or intifadas and suicide bombings.
So you and the rest of your country folk, can- very very much on very justifiable moral high ground to clarify- tell the Irish government to kiss your Israeli asses and mind their own business, They haven't any real idea what you guys have been through, so have no justification condemning you.
But that swings both ways. You have zero justification condemning our official neutrality in WW2 after you helped Nazi war criminals, just as Dun has no leg to stand on with his false accusation that Ireland is anti Semitic. We leave it at that.
USA and UK have lots of stains on their records concerning the holocaust (USA turned Jewish refugees away - ran DP Camps for years after the war keeping Jewish victims prisoner - UK had Nazi royals)...whatever...all those people are dead. Ireland had plenty of complicity too. Getting defensive about what "your" country did 80 years ago is in the nationalism/xenophobia/fascism family.
Ireland had sfa to do with the Holocaust. The worst thing we did was deny Jewish refugees entry in 1933, which was utterly shameful. We then took some in prior to WWII, but again the denial of entry was despicable. But that's about it, so no we don't have "plenty of complicity" and individual Irish stepped up when needed and saved many Jews and Jewish children from the camps.
https://jewishmuseum.ie/jews-of-ireland/...
And a hard lefty thinking anyone not as enlightened as he is, is a fascist or xenophobe, colour me surprised...🙄
Talking of cleaning up your own house…
Corpus is a big defender of Israel’s collective punishment of Palestinians but does anyone think he was in favour of collective punishment of Irish people during the IRAs campaign of the 70s and 80s?
Also states "the Arabs wanted to chase the Jews into the Red Sea"
corpusvile, Rauff was the mastermind who created the whole "flee to SA" strategy for nazis trying to saves their asses, he didn't need any help to achieve that (other than the help he got by the vatican ofc), he was the guy helping everyone else fleeing
corpusvile, Rauff was the mastermind who created the whole "flee to SA" strategy for nazis trying to saves their asses, he didn't need any help to achieve that (other than the help he got by the vatican ofc), he was the guy helping everyone else fleeing
I already linked how Rauff was indeed helped by Ted Cross, so I'm not interested in your denial of facts.
I already linked how Rauff was indeed helped by Ted Cross, so I'm not interested in your denial of facts.
you previously said it was americans.
Now, if Israel decides not to outright eliminate a nazi, we are 100% sure they do that because their strategic evalutaion is that jewish lives will be saved by doing that, so that's always moral as a choice. You cannot have a doubt about Israel doing anything but maximizing jewish survival right? your comparison was "better to be neutral or to help nazis".
If helping specific nazis helps jews, and it can be the case in specific instances, then it's moral. In wars of annihilation the morality of an act is strictly and always about winning nothing else ever enters the picture. Anything that helps you win is moral and viceversa, there is never any moral limit when facing annihilation.
Btw i do not believe Rauff was helped by Israel evenif your link vaguely suggests that. But if it happened, it's not an immoral action (unlike neutrality after you know of the holocaust). Unless the claim is they helped that person without any strategic goal while doing so.
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Stop lying. You absolutely did help SS Nazi butcher Walter Rauff, no two ways about it mate.
So yeah. You helped him and got him set up nice and cushy in South America, regardless of your falser claims otherwise.
Yeah like I said, different when your country does unethical $hit because reasons, excuses and moar reasons, I get you mate. 😀
Oh and I'm aware of the context, even if I think it's disgusting. But if your country gets into bed with Nazi war
Dude, take things a little more in proportion. No one is lying here and it's not "chutzpah" to have an opinion. We have a (small) disagreement about some facts and the conclusion we draw from them.
It seems we agree on in the most part, and yet, I do think being neutral in WW2 was a bad choice. I also agree that the Israeli's government policy in the 1950's not to not allocate resources to persecute Nazis because they were not deemed an existential interest was wrong. Both things can co-exist.
Moreover, the "clean up your gaff" argument really doesn’t make sense. All we do here is debate other countries. That is the point of this thread.
you previously said it was americans.
Now, if Israel decides not to outright eliminate a nazi, we are 100% sure they do that because their strategic evalutaion is that jewish lives will be saved by doing that, so that's always moral as a choice. You cannot have a doubt about Israel doing anything but maximizing jewish survival right? your comparison was "better to be neutral or to help nazis".
If helping specific nazis helps jews, and it can be the case in specific instances, then it's moral. In w
This is as close as it comes to a 100% accurate take on things.
Dude, take things a little more in proportion. No one is lying here and it's not "chutzpah" to have an opinion. We have a (small) disagreement about some facts and the conclusion we draw from them.
It seems we agree on in the most part, and yet, I do think being neutral in WW2 was a bad choice. I also agree that the Israeli's government policy in the 1950's not to not allocate resources to persecute Nazis because they were not deemed an existential interest was wrong. Both things can co-exist.
Mo
You opined that the hottest place in Hell is reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in a moral crisis. Let's say you disagree with witch burnings in the 13th century, which is from when your quote is from. However you're afraid to speak out in case you and your family are accused due to you speaking out. So you say nothing. Be neutral as it were. You're going to hell for protecting your family? Your quote isn't apt and it goes beyond mere opinion, as you were condemning us disingenuously, as you were told umpteen times we'd secretly helped the allies, but deliberately ignored that. You then falsely claimed Israel never helped Rauff but "used him" instead, when this is flat out untrue. You condemned our official neutrality while simultaneously, with a straight face engaged in apologia for Israel helping Rauff- that's where the chutzpah comes from, the glaring double standard, not you stating your opinion.
That and Dun's anti Semitism accusation is what annoyed me. Other than that, yeah our disagreement is small and we agree on more re Israel than we disagree, definitely.
Yeah...cuz Americans- along with the Britsh helped them too...and Dun is American... Are the dots getting connected yet?
Rest of your post is yet more reasons & excuses blah, combined with flat out gaslighting as my link was in no way vague, so I'm not even entertaining it.
Riiiight. So helping major Nazi war criminals responsible for 100k murders is far better than staying officially neutral in WWII while secretly helping the allies, because (yep) reasons and excuses and Ireland Bad.
😀
We used Hamas operatives with blood on their hands against the Islamic Jihad.
We used Amal operatives with blood on their hands against Hezbollah.
We used Hezbollah operatives with blood on their hands against the IRI.
When you are in mortal and existential danger, you use any means. This is real world facts. I worked for 3 months with a man from Gaza, who killed Jews from point blank, as he decided in order to save his life, to give us intel and show us secret locations.
You are wrong about Rauff. He was used, not helped. He was an asset and gave us a very important secretive intel about our second biggest enemy, at a time we were very weak.
We didn’t not volunteer to help our favorite friendly Nazi, it was a necessity at a very hard time. You took the "hottest place in hell" to literally. Obv Nazi's were worst. F&*k Dante
Dante
Also, you can disagree with someone without claiming he is dishonest or gall.
Unless you disagree with Vic. Then this is merit
Yeah...when you get into bed with such types it's Kool & the Gang, when we're neutral but secretly help the good guys, we're morally bankrupt. I get you mate I get you...
And nah, just highlighting how inapt your Dante quote actually was.
Already linked how Rauff was indeed helped, deny the facts all you want.
Also, you can disagree with someone without claiming he is dishonest or gall.
Unless you disagree with Vic. Then this is merit
I think it's dishonest to stubbornly deny that Rauff was helped, after being provided with a link which actually uses the word "helped" as in helped by Israel and again I'm very aware of the context, as I said earlier. I already explained why I think you showed gall and I don't think it's an unfair observation to make either. If you really think being neutral is worse than helping nazis- even for contextual and arguably valid reasons- then I really dunno what to tell ya, except we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
I think it's dishonest to stubbornly deny that Rauff was helped, after being provided with a link which actually uses the word "helped" as in helped by Israel and again I'm very aware of the context, as I said earlier. I already explained why I think you showed gall and I don't think it's an unfair observation to make either. If you really think being neutral is worse than helping nazis- even for contextual and arguably valid reasons- then I really dunno what to tell ya, except we'll have to agr
A Link to Haaretz article and to Wikipedia.
I have learned about the Rauff affair from a little more credible source. It is a lesson taught about asset usage.
I can go into details if you want, as it is no longer considered confidential information.
